Cheap bullets and not loading the way you're "supposed to"

[fiver]

nobody seems to remember the 6.5-284 anymore... LOL
there was actually 2 versions of the round, the winchester and the Norma.
the Norma become more popular for a reason.

anyway..
your rifle is setup much like my 30-06.
i poke a 152gr. home made bullet out of mine at a tick over/under close-nuff to 2800 fps. with 4064.
the wife runs another slightly heavier jacketed softer cored 150 too, only at 2650 with I-4895.
it's all the recoil she can stand to shoot very long from the bench.
you'd think i'd just buy a couple of nice 308's so i could save the extra 3 ounces and save myself a half calorie working the bolt, then add them back to the end of the barrel.
meh why bother?
the loads are easy on me and the rifle, plus i can watch whats happening through the scope.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I considered the 284 Case when I built my 6.5/06. But rarity of the cases and written problems getting that fat case to properly feed. Weighed against the commonality of the '06 case and zero balastic advantage the 06 case is hands down a better choice. Albeit not as cool nor as good looking.

Similarly I weighed against the 350Mag when I choose the 35 Whelen. I looked at the Brown Whelen but die costs made a reg Whelen a better choice. I also decided longer bbls to start to offset or bolster preformance. I thought I could always prune later if warranted.

CW

 

[358156 hp]

Fiver explained to me one time why the .260 Remington never took off, part of it had to do with short-action rifles (.308-length) and not enough neck so there wasn't enough room for the longer bullets from which the 6.5mm caliber benefits. The Creedmoor has the shoulder pushed back to compensate for this, at the cost of a little powder capacity. The ideal length for the 6.5 case and cartridge with an appropriate bullet seems to be about halfway in-between what the long, '06 action and short action rifles take, in other words a MAUSER-length action, 54, 55, or 57mm case lengths. Seems Paul Mauser had all this figured out 125 years ago when smokeless powder was in its very infancy.

Remington has a history of doing stupid things with twist rates? Remember the .244 Remington, or did you have the 6mm Remington? Two different twist rates, the early version (.244 Remington) was hamstrung with a 1:12 twist because Remington didn't think anyone would ever use it with 100+ grain bullets for deer. So the 243 Winchester blew it out of the water, becoming an iconic caliber in the process. So Remington reacted by changing the twist on new rifles to 1:10 in 1958 to match Winchester but the damage was already done. Sooo, Remington changed the name of the cartridge to 6mm Remington.

 

[fiver]

they done the same thing with the 260, and like the earlier 6mm they squeezed it into a short action too.
the 6.5 C didn't suffer anything from having the 'lower case capacity' since it practically has the same amount of case capacity as the 260.

 

[richhodg66]

Jim Carmichael said that whole twist rate thing with the .244 was BS and the old twist rate worked fine. I do not know from personal experience, but one of the old, slow twist 722s is on my bucket list.

I like the 6mm. I've had a couple of them over the years, and the 788 I have chambered in it is spooky accurate. Not long ago, I picked up a commercial Mauser of some type chambered in it which is a lovely rifle, but heavy. It is a heavier barrel than a typical sporter, but not quite what I'd call a varmint weight.

I killed a Javelina and a small doe with that 788 and as much as I like the rifle, I convinced myself the 6mm is a little light for bigger game. That was 20 years ago, and I've done a lot more deer hunting since then, so I may give the 6mm another go eventually. I like the cartridge.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Like everything there are acceptions and something things that shouldn't simply are. Rifle twists are such a thing. Something commandos who memorize charts parrot is this weight and that twist and specific weights for twists as if no other would work. Well looking the "other way" you cannot "over stabulize" a bullet. Meaning a fast twist works perfectly for a short bullet. Yea yea there is optimal and mathamatical yada yada but simple truths are fast twistbis required for very long bullets but they still shoot very short very well too! Now ya can OVER ROTATE a bullet and when looking at very thin or even some cast this can be a issue. But a typical cup and core or copper bullet generally have no problems being excessively rotated.

I have shot many 105 Speer RN bullets thru a friends 7400 6mm and two of my 243's yet repeatedly read it didnt work. So Ill submit. Sometimes it do sometimes it dont. Velocity can be a large contributor and maybe elevation as well. I have a ol 222 Savage that shoots 62g bullets into tiny groups.

CW

 

[RBHarter]

I took a few 6.5 CM cases and ran them in a 6.5×50 Japanese....... No trim , and if I could get another.05 in the die I'd have a no turn head ........ 243,260,7-08 all have to be trimmed and have a narrower extractor groove.

The CM , at least the 1X I got have about a 45° shoulder , short neck , and a wide shoulder . Eyeball against the 22-250 I didn't get up next to it I'd say the case capacity is almost 243 or 260 , definitely more than the Savage Aunt's .
I figure if it stretches length as much as it reduces dia it's close to an even for case capacity...... Might be wrong .

 

[Bret4207]

The only thing I ever purposely put a premium bullet in was the 250-3000. Oldest boy was using it for a deer rifle. He ended up getting a couple deer and a small bear. I think I still have half a box of 100 gr Nosler Partitions. A plain old 100 gr cup and core would work fine, but I still don't have a lot of faith in his marksmanship. That rifle, a Ruger Ultra Light, does great with basic 75 gr varmint bullets too.

 

[Missionary]

We have only used "cheap bullets" to pop corn crunchers. Our home brewed cast.... None of those bean eaters knew the difference.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

To tell ta truth I didnt at first even register "cheap bullets" coments. Read but didnt quite follow.

Its a half full half empty thing as I always thought of them as Bullets (that everyone uses) and the more costly as premium.

For me I only have used a few times and frankly never have needed. For me premium bullets are called for when you need everything out of the given caliber you have chosen. You want optimal expansion WITH optimal penetration while wanting two drain holes AND MAXIMUM SHOCK...

I have Partitions and some all copper jobbers. (Never a big fan) my ultimate bullet is the newer Federal Terminal Ascent bullet.
These are a copper base custom lead core, scant ojive shape, W/ boattail topped with a plastic tip. Of coarse the super premium price tag of $1.60 ea.

I have used most brands if I was ta choose one it would probably be Speer from a most used stand point. Sierras was always soft to me. Hornadys are side by ea with Speer just edging them out. Today, and for some some time in most calibers, I use mostly my own cast. I have a few that only see these "cheap" bullets and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Jeff H]

The only thing I ever purposely put a premium bullet in was the 250-3000. Oldest boy was using it for a deer rifle. He ended up getting a couple deer and a small bear. I think I still have half a box of 100 gr Nosler Partitions. A plain old 100 gr cup and core would work fine, but I still don't have a lot of faith in his marksmanship. That rifle, a Ruger Ultra Light, does great with basic 75 gr varmint bullets too.

Ohhhh, man! Ilove the little Ruger UL! I had one in 308 and it would 3/8", 3-shot groups, but it would have to be below freezing and I'd have to give it ten minutes between shots to do that, but it was a dream. That one was converted to a 25 Souper with a 24", tapered octagon barrel, which was dead-even with the 'Roberts. The UL 'Roberts we had wouldn't shoot, so it got a 24" tapered octagon barrel in 7x57 Improved.

I had a chance to trade the 308 (used) straight up for a brand new 250 UL, which had sat on the rack for a couple years. Went home and thought about it - too long. It was GONE the next day. Perfect cartridge for that little 6# gem!

 

[Walks]

Used a few Partitions back when I hunted Elk. Way I think about it, all time and money invested in a hunt ? Why would you really skimp on a bullet.
Taken small coastal muleys here with Sierra's , big pigs with Hornady interlock and an Elk with the Nosler Partition. Partition so long ago, they were the only Premium bullet made.

 

[RBHarter]

Dad shot Partitions and Pro hunters in his 25-06' . I've not needed more than an InterLokt Hornady but 308&06' don't really demand a super bullet for a 200 yd Mule deer or Antelope. I didn't really feel like with a soft ball size exit through 18" of mule deer I needed for an elk hunt.

 

[Rockydoc]

The only premium bullets I have ever used were Nosler Partitions. I use plain cup and core for whitetails because they are easy to kill and when you neck shoot them any bullet will do as long as it is accurate. I use the Noslers when I am asking a bullet to box above its weight like a 140gr 6.5mm bullet for elk or a .22 centerfire bullet for deer.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Never bought into the 'has to be a premium bullet' argument. Not against them, just no need for them for what I do. Small deer and maybe a hog inside of 100 yds normally. Nobody ever recommends the Speer HotCor bullets. I love them. Old 300 WM would shoot a HC 180 FB spitzer <.5 w/ a max load of one powder, and <.7 w/ min load of another powder - @ 100M. I and others have killed more deer (Reh and whitetail) with my Win M70 FW 6.5x55 and HCs over 35 years than I can count. I DO like the partitions, and have used them. Will for the 6.5 for Africa, cause the guide prefers them. For the 257 I just got, I found the Speer HCs in 100 grn and bought 4 boxes. Sure they will work great.

One premium bullet story I like to tell: Kid I coached, in a store trying to buy some very expensive premium bullet ammo for his 270. I asked if he was going Elk hunting. No, just our small Southern (AL) whitetails. Asked why the expensive premiums then. Said everything was running on him and not recovering them (w/ other premium bullets). I explained he was using too heavy a bullet for his game. Recommended a box of Remington CoreLokts. Saw that kid 3-4 yrs later - moral of the story - no more lost small whitetails!

 

[todd]

cup-n-core bullets are expensive these days. just a couple of days ago i got a flier and it was around $35 for 150gr Hornady Rn in 30 cal. the Seirra and Nosler BT in 30 cal was more expensive. the most expensive bullet i have is a 140gr Hornady SST in 27 cal. and it was bought around 10ish years ago.

premium bullets are gone with the wind. in the early '90s, i was infatuated with the Barnes X bullet. i had at the time, a 243 Win and i bought some 85gr X bullets and i loaded them up. i think it was powder #3 (i forget) that did it best group, 1 1/2" at 100 yards (5 shots, bench). basically it was good enuff, but not great. i took it out deer hunting, shot a doe, tracked a doe on my knees on thick mountain laurel about 300 yards, drug the doe about 250 yards, gutted the doe and found out that the Barnes X bullet didn't open up. it looked like a pencil went thru the lungs and the ribs. it was a big part of my reason to sell the 243 and never look back.

i've been using cast boolits to hunt deer with about 10 or 11 years ago and i love them.

 

[L Ross]

they done the same thing with the 260, and like the earlier 6mm they squeezed it into a short action too.
the 6.5 C didn't suffer anything from having the 'lower case capacity' since it practically has the same amount of case capacity as the 260.

Didn't they stick the .257 Roberts in the 722 also? Then factory ammo ended up being a 117 gr. round nose that hobbled a wonderful cartridge.

 

[fiver]

yeah,,,siigh.
wanna get me started on them screwing the 280 Ackley all to hell too?

 

[fiver]

Now ya can OVER ROTATE a bullet

brian litz says you can't.
i believe him.
you can damage a bullet in/going in a fast twist barrel, and then the other stuff does it in afterwards.
but if it isn't damaged you can't over spin a bullet.

 

[RBHarter]

Structural integrity failure.