Cheap bullets and not loading the way you're "supposed to"

[CWLONGSHOT]

brian litz says you can't.
i believe him.
you can damage a bullet in/going in a fast twist barrel, and then the other stuff does it in afterwards.
but if it isn't damaged you can't over spin a bullet.

No? Over rotate a thin skinned varmint bullet and you will see for yourself...

 

[waco]

Do you have an example Brian? What bullet at what speed in what twist?

 

[Ian]

Well, yeah, you can make them blow up. That's not the point. Lamar's blown up a CAST bullet before. The point is that the inherent act of spinning a bullet faster than the minimum necessary for stability has absolutely no disadvantage, up to the point of structural failure. My Swede groups just as well with cast at a quarter million RPM as it does at half that.

 

[popper]

structural failure good reason for tougher alloy. And good bullet design. Forward energy in a bullet meets air and that can only compress the bullet. Rotational energy tends to expand the dia and can lead to failure. Centrifugal force!

 

[fiver]

yep.
but that alone does no harm.

you gotta do something to the bullet first for the effect to take place.
the only other way for it to cause a problem is if you bend or off balance a long bullet.
slump,, chuckle...

Walter.
the 220 swift will grey smoke thin skinned light weight bullets.
the spin is just the finisher, the jackets were cut 3"s into the ordeal, spinning them in a 12 twist at 2800 fps would have had the same outcome.


yeah Ian that 0-6 thing didn't go so well.
but i didn't have any leading in the barrel to clean out so everything must have been fine,,, right?
now that i think back on it i never have found a gas check from that either, you'd think they would have only gone 20-30 foot or so in some direction or other.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Do you have an example Brian? What bullet at what speed in what twist?

Last I personally experienced was a 223 1:7 and 40g pushing 3500 fps

Thought I had issues when I pulled up close we started noticing shrapnil holes in paper targets.

First it happened was in a 1:14 22/250 with then new Factory Federal 40g Blitz ammo. We was shooting pigeons prone across a field and when we stood up we could see a cone shapped blast in front of me but not my buddy. I wasnt "missing" my bullets never arrived on target.

Paper thin jackets of Varmint bullets can be fragile and when hut with multi 100K rotatiknal speeds and a sharp bore... When can come apart.

CW

 

[RBHarter]

1-8.5 and 2900 fps with do it to a 150 gr big game bullet in 30 cal .

At long range where the curve of gravity v forward speed steepens the arc past 10° is where the gyro stabilizing starts to show up in oval holes with the bullet access parallel to the bore but not line of flight . Usually nose high .

 

[Mitty38]

I kinda like the Creedmoor. But I just does not serve a purpose for me.
I have shot a few. But I kinda have all my niches filled. If I hunted West Virginia still. It would be a choice between that and 7mm something or other, for me. Having an AR lower already, the Creedmoor would probably win out.

I use the 450 Bushmaster as my primary long range for now.
Long range (accept if I were competing) where I am at is 200 yards. I wanted a 45/70 but an AR upper was way cheaper. So next best thing. Basically Rimless semi auto 45/70. With a slight restriction on bullet weight choice.
Plus it gives me a spare deer rifle in a State where bottle necks are not allowed.

Sometimes ya just got to run what works for you. No matter what others think, or know. Nobody knows your exact circumstances.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

I have anywhere from 2000 up to 7000 Privi Partizan bullets in 4 different calibers that I and both of my sons use for deer hunting. Can't tell the difference in them and the expensive premium bullets myself and the deer sure don't know the difference. The 6.5 you mentioned is one of the four calibers.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

cup-n-core bullets are expensive these days. just a couple of days ago i got a flier and it was around $35 for 150gr Hornady Rn in 30 cal. the Seirra and Nosler BT in 30 cal was more expensive. the most expensive bullet i have is a 140gr Hornady SST in 27 cal. and it was bought around 10ish years ago.

premium bullets are gone with the wind. in the early '90s, i was infatuated with the Barnes X bullet. i had at the time, a 243 Win and i bought some 85gr X bullets and i loaded them up. i think it was powder #3 (i forget) that did it best group, 1 1/2" at 100 yards (5 shots, bench). basically it was good enuff, but not great. i took it out deer hunting, shot a doe, tracked a doe on my knees on thick mountain laurel about 300 yards, drug the doe about 250 yards, gutted the doe and found out that the Barnes X bullet didn't open up. it looked like a pencil went thru the lungs and the ribs. it was a big part of my reason to sell the 243 and never look back.

i've been using cast boolits to hunt deer with about 10 or 11 years ago and i love them.

That was the bullet not the .243. If you had used a 100 g Partition of Nosler Flat Base in 100 g you wouldn't have needed to track the deer. Never had a Nosler, Speer or Sierra bullet not open on a deer that I shot with a .243. I been killing deer with one for 50 years and shoot the same minimum load of IMR 4320 that I started with. Both sons use the same load but use the Privi 100 g SP and it kills just as well if not better than the Noslers. I love some of the Barnes bullets but some are too tough for thin skinned game.

 

[todd]

That was the bullet not the .243. If you had used a 100 g Partition of Nosler Flat Base in 100 g you wouldn't have needed to track the deer. Never had a Nosler, Speer or Sierra bullet not open on a deer that I shot with a .243. I been killing deer with one for 50 years and shoot the same minimum load of IMR 4320 that I started with. Both sons use the same load but use the Privi 100 g SP and it kills just as well if not better than the Noslers. I love some of the Barnes bullets but some are too tough for thin skinned game.

this was back in the early 90s. Barnes X bullet was new and it definitely needed improvements, like not opening up on thin skin game. wished we had the internet back then. i didn't use Partition bullet or the Ballistic Tip. i used 105gr Speer RN, 100gr Speer/Seirra SP and a 100gr Hornady RN. i used IMR 4831 and 2 or 3 other powders (i owned four 243 Win but at different times).

every deer i shot was behind the shoulder or a shoulder shot (either entry or exit wound). the 100gr Hornady RN was the "best", the deer would go 50-75 yards after the shot. the 100gr and the 105gr were "good", the deer would go 75-125 yards after the shot. in the end, it was Barnes X bullet that made my decision to sell the 243.

my best friend had or still has a Rem m788 in 243 that he used since he was 12yo. he will shoot whatever factory brand is cheaper and he kills deer DRT. go figure.

my dad (RIP), me and my two sons (and a ex-wife) use the 7-08 for deer (everybody has a different Rem m7 with a 18.5" barrel). i load up 139gr Hornady FN (discontinued and i still have 150-200 bullets) and it either kills deer DRT or 20ish yards after the shot.

in my mind, the 243 is a varmint gun. you can say it is a deer gun too, as my best friend says.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I found much exact same as Todd. 100g Hornady rn saw much use and worked well. 105Speer was just as good for me. The 85g Speer BT was found later. When a friend bought a Remington auto in 6mm and that ammo and shot 3-4 deer bang flop!! WITH EXITS!

Today I have a 6mm and its top bullet is the Speer 105 Spitzer. (@ 3100 fps)

CW

 

[Rick H]

I have a long history with a Remington 788 in 6mm Remington. I used to use 95gr. Nosler solid base spitzers (not ballistic tips) before they were discontinued and now the Hornady 100gr. SPBT, both at a touch over 3000fps. I have killed whitetail deer and antelope with it. I consider it (and it's twin, performance wise, the .243Win) as marginal deer rifles. They will work fine with game under 150 lbs. With good bullet placement at moderate range you might stretch it a bit on larger animals. I do think they are ideal Pronghorn Antelope rifles.
Both of those bullets performed beautifully on Michigan Whitetail deer (typically less then 150 lbs and inside 100 yards) and Pronghorn to 350 yds.

I often see the 243/6mm class cartridges recommended as a beginner's deer rifle. I think this is a mistake. A much better choice would be the 7-08 or even the 308W. I think the 243/6mm is overkill on coyotes as well. I have never had a problem anchoring them with a 55gr spitzer softpoint (Not FMJ) from a .223R/5.56 inside 400 yds.

I love the 6mm Remington but recognize its limitations. I rarely take it with me when deer hunting the forested hills and ridges of Michigan's UP.

 

[L Ross]

The only problem I have with the .243 and its kin is meat damage. I have a couple of friends that had long running one shot kill tallies over a number of years without a single loss. I also know of a number of adults who got their kids .243's and have had no issues. I do have to say, I have never understood the idea of kid's and lady's rifles. If they are good enough for less experienced and recoil sensitive shooters they should be the cat's behind in the hands of a steely eyed macho rifleman.

The meat damage in my opinion stems from the need for high velocity in order for the small caliber, light bullet cartridges to work. Resulting in those jellied massive hematomas under the hide and between the muscles often for a large area surrounding the wound. What a pain in the butt when you process your own animals. Rockdoc's solution is a valid one, shoot 'em in the neck. I do once it awhile, but more often take a upper heart shot.

Obviously it is impact velocity I am concerned with when it comes to those nasty jellied wounds. My solution has been to load simple cup and core bullets in the common but lighter bullet weight for caliber, i.e. 150gr. for .30, 130gr. for .270/7mm, the 123 gr in the 7.62 and push them 2,300 to 2,600 fps. My hardwoods are not only heavily wooded, but the steep ridges and valleys limit the distance you can see. The most common range I have shot deer at since I moved here in 2003 has been 40 yards. Yup, shot one at 135 paces and a couple under 25 but typically 40 yards seems to be the magic number.

My wife and I have had good success with a .250-3000 running the Hornady 117 rn at 2,500 fps, but it rarely dumps a deer in its tracks. The 100 gr. Ballistic Tip at 2,800 did but again, more trimming required.

A lengthy list of cast bullet kills ranging from the .44-40 to a .45-90 were all very satisfactory, but all of those rifle wear open sights and I have been neglecting them in favor of scoped rifles. My brother brought a scoped Remington Model 600 in .35 Remington down here last month that he got from the estate of his best friend. That little gun loaded with the RCBS 35-200-FN might make the slickest combo for my woods ever. But it'd be easier to order up a set of chicken lips than find one of those.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

I have several guns in .243 but my 18" 788 is my favorite. My 100g load clocks 2694 fps. My oldest son did have one small buck that ran 60 yards or so but he aimed for the lung shot and hit him in the hip instead so I was not surprised that he ran that far. Wish I had bought all of the 788's I could find while they were common and cheap. Would love to have JES do me one in .35 Remington or .358 Winchester.

 

[popper]

243 is a varmint gun 15 kids from 8-15 yrs old will disagree. All but one got a deer, processed it and none recovered a bullet. Got several hogs too, largest was ~ 300#. All used factory ammo. My GK hit his low brisket, tracked 100 yds but was dead. He used a lighter bullet than the 90gr I recommended, but it worked. IIRC his 'qual' group was 1/2 the size of his older brother.

 

[todd]

when he was young, my brother was given a '06 in Rem m700ADL (my dad (RIP) was all about the '06). i reloaded 170gr Hornady FN at about 2500-2600fps. back then, i was going from reloading books and i didn't have a chronograph and there was no internet. i thought i found "the load" and after he shot, i was impressed. he used that load for 5 or 6 years and about 15-20 one shot deer kills. there was no tracking, just a bang, flop. i looked at wound channel and it was awesome, but today i wouldn't use them because of the bloodshot meat. if he did a shoulder shot, you're better off if you throw the shoulder away. the "nasty jellied wounds" were a rule, both inner and outer wounds. if you go around 2800fps and up, the Nosler BT acts like a grenade going off inside of the deer, lung soup with chunks of heart and the deer runs about 30-40 yards. i found that out by using my 270 Win and a 130gr BT that were going 3000+fps. oh, i forgot, in dense woods, thickets, thick mountain laurel, green briars and the like and shots are 50 yards and less.

the 265gr Hornady FN in the 444 going around 2300-2400fps is a "nasty jellied wounds" bullet. i took the 265gr to 2000-2100fps and instantly the bullet was a bang, drop and the "nasty jellied wounds" was about 10-20% thrown away (80-90% was good enuff to eat).

in the 10 or so years, i have been using cast boolits almost exclusively. i found out that a COWW with a splash of tin, Lyman #2 with a splash of tin or recently a 10 lead:1 tin is good enuff for my rifles needs and wants. a 30-40 Krag, 35/30-30, 9.3x57, 444 Marlin, 45-70 and a couple of others are cast boolit guns. 1300-1900fps is the speed i want.

i have a Win m94 in 35/30-30 (JES did it) and a 200gr RCBS 200GR FN GC with 2400/tuft of dacron going 1726fps and it is a deer killer!!! i wanted to try 250-280gr boolits, but after i seen this, i'm hooked on the 200gr. it's recoil is soft to non-existent and it is joy to carry. i know, i have only the use of one arm!!! the 35/30-30 is close to being the perfect caliber for me. the 9.3x57 (275gr WFN GC) with a 2-7x Leopold is coming up a close second.



to all those that say (like i do) using a 243 is just a heavy-for-caliber varmint rifle is ok t. i know it kills deer, i've done that. what i don't like is the tracking of deer that were shot (shoulder/behind the shoulder) with the 243. i've done that too much. i feel that a 257 caliber with 115-120gr bullets is a fine deer rifle, for the areas i hunt (close cover) and the deer size (avg weight is 150 lbs). you might feel that the 243 is like the next best thing to sliced bread. i say good for you and the 243 .

i haven't bought, used and looked at a 243 for 30+/- some years. i doubt very much that i will like the 243 Win, even with today's cup-n-core or premium bullets

 

[Bret4207]

I am not a fan of bloodshot meat. I'm also not a fan of the idea of having bullets create excessively large wounds. IMO something like a 6mm. 250-3000, 257 R, etc is adequate for deer given the right shot placement and bullet. I know of a lot of deer that fell to an 86 gr factory 25-20 bullet! I guess my point is that maybe we have all bought into the idea of velocity for velocities sake. I don't think we need to push the 90/100 gr 6mm/25 cal bullets to 3000 fps. An awful lot of deer and bear have fallen with a 100 gr 250-3000 bullet at 2800 +/-. There's a lot to be said for hitting something with a standard style bullet somewhere between 2200 and 2800fps. Are they "bang, flop" kills? Sometimes they do, other times they don't. But the "bang, flops" seem to be the ones that have pounds of unusable meat with the higher velocity stuff.

To each their own.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have use the 243 a number of times. I always used the Hornady100g or Speer 105g RN bullets. No more ruined meat then any other Cup N Core bullet and less then some others! Like the Sierra 175g SPT in 8mm @ 2700 fps!! But of coarse we all know its always been more important WHERE, then with what.

I had high hopes with my 6mm Rem W/ 105 Speer spitzers, this season but it will have ta keep till next season.

 

[Jeff H]

....I do have to say, I have never understood the idea of kid's and lady's rifles. If they are good enough for less experienced and recoil sensitive shooters they should be the cat's behind in the hands of a steely eyed macho rifleman.
....

One would think.

Same goes for "ladies' handguns."

I'm OK with the label though, because it is an indicator that the gun might have traits which I would personally appreciate; fit, low recoil, low noise, compact, light,...