Checking hardness

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Currently I am loading other peoples cast bullets, plus a few .38 wad-cutters, and some near pure lead 50 cal muzzle loader slugs, that I managed to pour without muddeling up too much.
I am trying to find a convenient hopefully inexpensive way to test lead hardness at home. I have taken some scrap into work and melted down into pucks, then tested on their,specifically set up for pucks, and ingot, hardness tester. This tells me the hardness wile the puck is green. I cannot keep taking things in to work to do on my lunch, I am wearing out my welcome concerning this.
Thing is, I am looking for a way to test the bullets ( I can always pour a test bullet or slug when I make my ingot).
Right now, my only self casting interests are low velocity .38 special wad cutters, .380 and 30-06 short range target rounds.
I am sure that will change one day, as I never even thought that I would be remotely interested in casting my own.

The Lee tester, I do not think will work for me. As I cannot see myself, with my eyes,coordination and impatience for tiny things, using their system, at least not for very long.
I can use a dial indicator conversion charts- formulas and gauge type measuring instruments, quite efficiently. I really do not have the cash, or room for a bench mounted testing system.
I have heard of the lead pencil method, but not sure how accurate that would be. Is this just a fly by night idea? Is it a viable way of testing, that will, help me limp thru? Will it get me close enough? At least, till I get further into casting, and the sub moa thing?
Any Ideas on how I can get started with this? And what is out there? As I want to have quite a bit of ingot, poured seasoned, and marked for hardness before I start with serious casting.
 
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Spindrift

Well-Known Member
I have used the pencil method a few years. The concept is, to find the softest pencil that will cut the lead. Square of the end of the pencil, creating a sharp angle. Then push (not drag) the pencil at 45˚ angle across the lead (file a flat spot, avoiding the base of the bullet which can be porous).

A nice thing about the pencil method, besides the economical aspect, is you don’t have to have a bullet- shaped piece of lead. And you can bring it to the scrapyard.

When you have found the softest bullet that cuts into the lead, consult this chart

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Edit: I have later aquired a Lee tester, and found corresponding BHN with the two methods.

Good luck, Mitty!
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
The pencil test tends to run +- 2 points . It's simple if the pencil scratches the lead is softer if it marks it's softer . There are scales available for the drafting pencil sets .
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
the pencils will work just fine.
you don't need perfection, all you need is a window and that window can be a pretty wide one as far as what works.
in the less stringent loads [low pressure low velocity] BHN is pretty much meaningless,
6-8-12 meh, get the fit right.

as things matter more, things matter more, and the window needs to tighten up from batch to batch.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Pencils here for me but you really need the "staedtler pencils" set I had two other brands and they were way off!
Pencils get me close enough ( I think they are pretty darn accurate)
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
The pencil test tends to run +- 2 points . It's simple if the pencil scratches the lead is softer if it marks it's softer . There are scales available for the drafting pencil sets .
the pencils will work just fine.
Thanks Guys, I have a complete Staedtler Mars old school wood pencil set, from when we used those in Mechanical drafting in school. Back when we used to draw everything out by hand, and then make ammonia activated blue print copies. I know some of you guys remember those.
;)
So know I can start with what I already have and save some of my cash for other needed equipment.
:):)
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I have a tester but don’t use it much. Most of my loads don’t care.
I use mostly range scrap and until, I really push things it does all I need.

Proper fit to the firearm Is far more important.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I will give you my opinion. It's absolutely free and will cost you nothing but a bit of time in the reading and hopefully a bit more time in the pondering and considering dept. Don't worry at all about "hardness". No doubt you, like so many of the rest of us (me included), have been sold on the idea that "harder is better". No. You will never produce an alloy even approaching the strength of the copper alloys used in bullet jackets, so forget that. Secondly, I can produce the same Bhn from 3 different alloys, or take one alloy and produce 3 different Bhn's. And unless you are buying lab grade or otherwise pure or guaranteed base metals or alloys, if you're using scrap to produce your alloy, then you have no freakin' idea what you really have there. My suggestion would be to take everything you have in the way of alloy, melt it all up in a big batch, turn it into ingots and learn to use what you have for now. The biggest disservice ever done to the cast bullet crowd was selling the "HARDCAST!!!" idea as a fix for anything, much less everything! It's all relative and one mans "soft alloy" is another mans "medium hard" alloy. Forget about it for now. Learn to make lots of nice bullets with as close to perfect bases as you can, with complete fillout. Then learn to load them without marring and distorting them. Then move on to seeing what your gun wants in order to make what you have shoot. "FIT IS KING!!!!!" in cast. Bhn is way down in the list behind a mess of other stuff. Fatter is generally better up to the point just before the bullet won't chamber. There are no miracle lubes, mould releases, moulds, powders or anything else. It's all a matter of finding something the gun likes and tweaking things one at a time from there. The vast majority of my cast shooting has been with standard type wheel weight alloys running about 12-15 Bhn, some times hardened, sometimes softer. I've done the super hard stuff at considerable expense and gotten Bhns well over 25. I still was limited by fit issues to just over 2K in 30 cals and the groups weren't anything to brag about. Funny thing is, I took the base alloy over 2K too and it grouped better!

In closing, unless you are mixing base materials (for which there are formulas) or dealing with completely unknown "lead-y" appearing junk, if you're using WW or range scrap, just mix a big batch up and go from there. Worrying about the Bhn is wasted time at this stage. Low and slow works great for cast shooting at the start. Read the "Low Node" posts and see the results they get. Try having fun with this before you try to reach 3K fps with super dooper special depelted uranium HARDCAST!!!!!
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Bret, just let me say that there is a lot of wisdom in your post. Those few paragraphs could replace volumes of drivel written about casting, loading, and shooting lead bullets. It reminds me of Dean Grennell's comment in the ABC's of Reloading, about making a bullet out of it if it is vaguely plumbous.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
What is far more important than achieving a specific BHN is that all of the bullets within a group are the same BHN. Mixing bullets of various hardness within a group, especially at longer ranges will make a shotgun pattern look good. In most revolver shooting at any distance it won't matter if they are all 11 BHN or all 16 BHN as long as they are all the same. Thus the reasoning behind blending and using as large a batch of alloy as possible, until it's used up each casting session will use the same alloy.
 

Ian

Notorious member
learn to use what you have for now.
You'll learn more about cast bullet loading and shooting doing this than trying to reach some pre-determined, guaranteed formula from the outset. "Teach a man" to fish and so forth.

Secondly, I can produce the same Bhn from 3 different alloys, or take one alloy and produce 3 different Bhn's.
In most revolver shooting at any distance it won't matter if they are all 11 BHN or all 16 BHN as long as they are all the same.
Yep, and they all behave differently. The difference between being completely new to alloy function in a load and knowing anything at all about it is basically a lifetime of work, so just make sure your alloy is WEAK enough and learn to run with whatever ya got in the scrap bucket.

"FIT IS KING!!!!!" in cast. Bhn is way down in the list behind a mess of other stuff. Fatter is generally better up to the point just before the bullet won't chamber.
If any of the bullet casting handbooks had ever said just that, it would have saved a lot of people a lot of grief.

Worrying about the Bhn is wasted time at this stage. Low and slow works great for cast shooting at the start.
That's where the fun is big and the stress is small. Good times.

Try having fun with this
Yes...

Solid gold advice in a nutshell.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
All of us have our unique shooting applications and unique guns.
In my case, I found that fiddling and worrying about alloy hardness was a waste of time and resources. I sold the Lee hardness tester, mixed several alloys and let the guns determine what they liked the best.
Not being a hunter, I don't have to be concerned with alloy strength (different from hardness, and terminal effect, but eliminating alloy hardness from the equation sure made the entire hobby much more fun.
 

JonB

Halcyon member
Lots of great advice given so far.
My advice is a little different, than those given so far, but that is due to my own personal situation.

I use scrap lead and lead alloys that I I have scrounged from different sources. Mostly I prefer to cast and shoot with an alloy similar to COWW or a softened COWW. Between measuring hardness and finding an alloys melt point/freeze point and watching the slushy stage or lack there of... I am able to make a good guess at what an alloy is, and then am able make another good guess at what to add to it, to make an alloy that I think my guns will like. Also, if you decide to start heat treating alloys, a hardness tester is a big help of knowing what is happening.

I have a Lee hardness tester and use it frequently. I don't have the best eyes, but once I made a adjustable stand for the Lee microscope with a solid base to hold the bullet being tested, it is easy to read the measurement.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Jon, that's pretty much what I have settled on doing. I do a lot of heat treating for rifle work and a lot of checking melt/freeze point and duration of slush stage to determine antimony content. That and the Lee BHN tester go a long way toward telling me what I have, or more importantly how to make what I have again for next time if it did what I wanted. Testing as-cast bullets and testing them again at definite time intervals is also extremely helpful in determining alloy constituency. At a certain point, alloying and working loads for a certain purpose becomes an art form (definite science behind it, but without exact information about the alloy it's more about intuition). Little things like how long the "tails" are hanging from the ladle spout or furnace nozzle and just how "watery" the alloy feels when stirred in the pot tell a lot about how much tin is present, and so can observing the pattern of the fine frost formation on cooled bullets.
 
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JWFilips

Well-Known Member
The only way Commercial Hard Cast works is for the Producers! That insures that nice looking bullets are delivered to your door step!
And I got that from the mouths of "Commercial casting" Babes!

True; I do not shoot hard bullets in my rifles but again I only shoot "Low Node" so That is fine. BHN's are about 10 to 11 plus I powder coat so the coating probably is the hardest part of those bullets
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
My main concern with hardness testing is just to be able to put my lead in 3 groups.
7 BHN and lower for my 50 muzzle loader, and sinkers. 8-17 BHN to melt down into one consistent 20 lb batch,for my low velocity loads, and 18 higher BHN to save for future loading or whatever. So the pencil method will work Quite well for me.
 

Walks

Well-Known Member
I've been influenced a lot by My Dad's casting in the 1950's-60's.
He had ways of doing things that I stuck with because I only loaded 3 types of bullets for 3 different uses.

Things changed a lot for me when I started shooting Handgun Metallic Silhouette in the mid to late 1970's. I sorta lost my way and was influenced by the "Hardcast crowd".

Things changed a lot since the 1960's.
One thing I've learned is that you no longer need Hard Bullets Cast of Linotype to engage the shallow rifling of the OLD 1911 bbl's and M1917 Smiths&Colts. All auto-loading handguns don't need HARD bullets to make it into the chamber without hanging up. And for Marlin MicroGroove rifling.

I still have a lot of #358156GC, #429215GC and a bunch more of Lyman and Saeco Gas Checked Bullets. Cast of Linotype.

All those bullets can still be sized a bit bigger and PC'ed and do the job.

Still cast 20/1 for target loads up to about 950fps. Or COWW with a couple of Linotype ingots to make 30lbs of target alloy.

And I've learned some things should be left alone if they work. Regardless of Conventional "Wisdom".

Still and all tumble-lube with 45-45-10 has worked well for me, so has powder coating.

I use a Saeco Lead Hardness Tester, It's worked well for me.

And the Pencil testing. Until I saw the chart, I'd forgotten My Dad, with his pack of Special Pencils. He'd be out in the Garage a few nights after making alloy and Mammoth casting sessions.

Anymore, with all the Art Stores gone, I guess I'll have to go online to find the right pencils. Cause It's certain sure that office depot or staples will have nothing but cheap chinese junk.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Actually I got my Staedler(SP) sets at either Staples or Office Depot . I can't remember which now .

I have an alloy I use for "business" in 30 and under that tests at 18 but shoots like a 22&24 and acts 12-14 on impact . It has to be heat treated to get it 18 as it's only about a 12 air cooled .

I've used a lot range scrap and found that the conventional wisdom isn't always all that wise .

Run what you have sorted into something on the order of thumb nail soft , hard , and very hard . Shoot a few of each with fast , medium , and slow powders per cartridge and keep notes .
With just WW , Red Dot , Unique and H4350 I learned volumes in a fussy 06' and 32 Rem about plain base and after , 6-7 yr I tried some gas checks for a 27 cal rifle ......... I think however that the time spent with the thumb nail tester , plain bases and Lee moulds of yore made me a better caster and shooter .
 

Walks

Well-Known Member
I have no use for bullets for Hunting. As in CA, there is no lead allowed in Hunting. As for Social business, I rather just use factory ammo.

So it's Softish for Cowboy/Plinking, and semi-hard for Rifle or Handgun at Paper to 100yrds. Pure for front stuffers and C & B.

All I need these days, and after all the experimenting with TL & PC over the last 3+yrs, I'll just settle in to what I've learned and not over think it anymore.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
I have made some changes and its working for me. (Accept for 30 cal rifle)

i started powder coating maybe three or four years ago and really got rolling with it lil over two years ago. So much that I dont even make conventionally lubed bullets. I do still shoot some “store bought” for specailized uses. Ill buy molds when I feel the urge. ;)

Anyhow, I was almost 20 years in the printing industry. My first real job was in a printing co in high school and that held till about 89-90 when I opened my own place and that laster almost ten more years. I say that cause I had ready access to letter press and lino type pigs. Yes I was casting then too. Not as much as I do recently so unfortuneately I didnt “stick up” enough. But I had plenty of lino and cast most everything 100%. Everything was grand. All shot just fine. IMHO that like most bullets work better fat they also work best HARD!

Anyhow. Move forward to about 2010. I began mixing alloy to stretch my lino supply. Then few years later PC and I didnt “need” low velocity hardness to fend off leading. PC was a god send that way!! So now we can shoot soft bullets that are cheaper and expand and PC coat them and enjoy fouling free shooting!!
Now most of my plinkers are 8-12 BHN (Tested on a LBT tester) hunting are 12-16 and “Hard” is 18-20.

I mentioned problems with 30 cal accuracy. Well only way I cured it was to cast real hard bullets. THEN they shot as I would expect. Now I dont have super high expactions for my cast and when I want true accuracy I still Rely upon jacketed. If I see 2” @ 100 I am happy from most rifles and 1” to touching @ 50. If I can see 2” @ 50 and touching at 25 with a hand gun I am also satisfied happy. I have gotten better but thats my “opinion” on my cast bullets.
CW