Common Alloys And Their Uses

[dale2242]

Get you some of these.
They are cheap and easy to install.

Amazon.com : plastic gas can vent caps

www.amazon.com

 

[RBHarter]

I bought cheap transmission funnels for the truck cans . I don't remember where it came from but I have a short fat funnel for the mowers . Failing that I've had good luck with 5' of fuel hose . I've managed to hang onto the pvc spout on the old mixed gas can for the saws .

 

[Dimner]

If you want to REALLY simplify things, just powder coat everything. An alloy if about 2.5-4% antimony and 1/2% tin will do just about anything you could possibly want with smokeless powder.

Coming back to this comment.

I am trying to plan ahead with my lead. I'm almost out of CWW. I have about 50-60lbs of plain soft lead.

Your comment above, does it still hold true if there is not a trace amount of As?

I'm not looking for anything special. I don't need a super hard BHN. So the 2.5-4% antimony and 1/2% tin alloy sounds perfect. Would quenching a powder coated bullet with this alloy get me to maybe 15BHN? What's your gut say? I guess I can do some smelting and put some together and see how it goes. But a starting point is always nice.

At this time, I don't want to have to start buying magnum shot for trace As. And I'm personally not too educated on how sulfur or copper can work to get me what I want. 3 elements, 1 goto alloy, makes one happy shooter.

 

[Rick]

I didn't go back through all of this thread and I don't know what firearms your casting for but . . . . Arsenic is not a necessity. It can be a benefit depending what your trying to do. Look at arsenic as frosting on the cake. Without the frosting the cake is still good. if your not oven heat treating arsenic is only a very minor benefit. Arsenic is of course a harder metal than lead but with such minor percentages it's hardening is minimal. It's prime benefit comes from heat treating the alloy where it acts like a catalyst bringing the final BHN up well above what the percentage of antimony would suggest.

 

[Dimner]

I didn't go back through all of this thread and I don't know what firearms your casting for but . . . . Arsenic is not a necessity. It can be a benefit depending what your trying to do. Look at arsenic as frosting on the cake. Without the frosting the cake is still good. if your not oven heat treating arsenic is only a very minor benefit. Arsenic is of course a harder metal than lead but with such minor percentages it's hardening is minimal. It's prime benefit comes from heat treating the alloy where it acts like a catalyst bringing the final BHN up well above what the percentage of antimony would suggest.

Thanks Rick,

That's what I'm wondering about. I don't necessarily heat treat in the method that is normally thought of. However I do quench my bullets directly when they come out of the PC oven. So I get a little of the benefit of heat treating.

So I'm wondering what the impact of having no trace of As in this situation.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

The site is at its issues for me again. Im not able to post a picture...

Everything is normal until I "add" the pic. And there is nothing there. I restarted the phone. Signed out and back in.... Nope no pics allowed.

Grr. Ooh well

CW

 

[Rick]

Thanks Rick,

That's what I'm wondering about. I don't necessarily heat treat in the method that is normally thought of. However I do quench my bullets directly when they come out of the PC oven. So I get a little of the benefit of heat treating.

So I'm wondering what the impact of having no trace of As in this situation.

Very little to nothing. How long do you cook your PC bullets and at what temperature? In heat treating a PB/Sb alloy ( with or without arsenic) time is every bit as important as the temp. A half hour will get you both poor and inconsistent hardening. One hour minumum.

 

[Ian]

There probably isn't enough As in WW to be if any benefit anyway.

To anneal a ternary bullet you only need 20 minutes at 400 and air quench. To harden it you need 45 minutes after the bullets reach their hardening temperature, which is usually more than 400. 425⁰F is what I consider a minimum heat treat temperature for the alloy we're currently discussing, and essentially an hour's time....IN A CONVECTION OVEN. Oven type matters a bunch. You also have about two full seconds from the time you open the oven door to get the bullets all in the water or you're wasting your time. I have gotten clip-on wheelweights with 1% tin added in .22 caliber at 430⁰F/45 minutes up to 19 BHN after three weeks of aging, cool water quenched straight out of the oven and baked the coating at the same time. 15 bhn or better for a 3/1 alloy @ one hour/430⁰F while curing the coating and straight into 60⁰F water is easy, just don't even bother doing a hardness test for a month.

 

[fiver]

it takes me an hour to cure off my coated bullets in the oven anyway, just because that's how I do it.
but it isn't a full hour under 400-F cure time, just a 20+/- cure time at that temp, with two other 20 minute heat steps below that.
oven off, watch the temp after the 20 at 400, and when it starts to drop I pull them out and dump them.
it's just how I do it, and it's mostly because I want a longer 'wet-flow' stage for the coating to flow together better.

 

[Dimner]

Currently I cook my bullets at 415 for 24 minutes. These are 22 cal PC bullets. Alloy is CWW+ 1.5% pure tin. This is in a convection counter top pizza/toaster oven. Bullets are immediately ice quenched after removal. I set the timer for 25 minutes and take them out when they reach the 1 minute mark.

This gives me a 17-18 bhn

Same process only air cooled gives me 10bhn.

So I guess I'm wondering, how much is the arsenic helping with the hardening? Lasc information has lots to say about the benefits of trace arsenic as helping with hardening and CWW being a good source. Is that information still relevant?

This all goes back to wondering if I can get by without the arsenic as I'm running out of CWW. The goal being able to achieve the same results as my current 22cal PC and quenched bullets.

 

[Ian]

Like Rick said, don't get wrapped around the axle regarding Arsenic; what you read is correct but ternary alloy will do what you want without it, particularly if you are powder coating your bullets.

How long after quenching did you wait to test those? If you only have 2.5 to 3% antimony, DO have a significant amount tin present, and little to no arsenic, it takes weeks for the "free" antimony not bound up as Sb/Sn to precipitate and fully harden.

 

[RicinYakima]

The site is at its issues for me again. Im not able to post a picture...

Everything is normal until I "add" the pic. And there is nothing there. I restarted the phone. Signed out and back in.... Nope no pics allowed.

Grr. Ooh well

CW

It is not the site, it is your phone, or carrier. Sorry.

 

[Joshua]

It is not the site, it is your phone, or carrier. Sorry.

It’s your phone!

 

[popper]

You can get by ok without As, generally speeds up hardening but is a hardener too. Doesn't take much at all. My guess, As makes holes that get filled by other atoms.

 

[Rick]

Lasc information has lots to say about the benefits of trace arsenic as helping with hardening and CWW being a good source. Is that information still relevant?

Pretty much relevant yes. I know the author quite well and can attest to the fact that he is a really nice guy. Keep in mind those articles were written back when WW was quite easy to get and either free or cheap.

 

[Ian]

And holds a doctorate in chemistry as well if I recall correctly.

 

[Rick]

So I guess I'm wondering, how much is the arsenic helping with the hardening?

Not a lot at your current cooking temps and especially the 24 minutes. As I've already said time is critical in heat treating. What we are not getting across to you is that you can achieve the exact same hardness with or without the As. Arsenic is not mandatory.

 

[Rick]

And holds a doctorate in chemistry as well if I recall correctly.

That would be our very own moderator Glen. Who is a real PhD in chemistry.

 

[Dimner]

Like Rick said, don't get wrapped around the axle regarding Arsenic; what you read is correct but ternary alloy will do what you want without it, particularly if you are powder coating your bullets.

How long after quenching did you wait to test those? If you only have 2.5 to 3% antimony, DO have a significant amount tin present, and little to no arsenic, it takes weeks for the "free" antimony not bound up as Sb/Sn to precipitate and fully harden.

From my notes....
6hrs after quench: 11.0 BHN
1 day: 13.9BHN
2 days: 16.6BHN
7 days: 17.2BHN
21 days: 17.9BHN
stopped testing after 21 days

did also test my as cast bullets.. they were 13.4 after 21 days

air cooled after PC was 11.0 after 21 days

Pretty much relevant yes. I know the author quite well and can attest to the fact that he is a really nice guy. Keep in mind those articles were written back when WW was quite easy to get and either free or cheap.

That's great to hear and the reason I was wondering if it held up. Being that CWW have changed so much over time. Just so you guys know, I was in no way questioning Dr Glen's expertise. Just trying to figure out if what I was reading can be applied to the CWW that I'm currently using.

Not a lot at your current cooking temps and especially the 24 minutes. As I've already said time is critical in heat treating. What we are not getting across to you is that you can achieve the exact same hardness with or without the As. Arsenic is not mandatory.

I copy that loud and clear. And it's music to my ears. I have no wish to play around with extra elements if I can get the results I want.

 

[L Ross]

For those unfortunate enough not to have a life time plus stash don't you think it is worth your time to make a concerted effort to procure more lead? There has to be lonely, dusty, dirty buckets of wheel weights out there in small town shops and garages.

Sue and I used to stop in at tire shops and small town garages and more often than not scored WW. Some times in the process of BSing with an owner or manager we'd get tips to other sources. I quit a few years ago, (at least actively searching), because I had so much I was sending lead home with shooting buddies after Matches held here. The hunt for lead is almost as much fun as shooting it.

Whenever I stop at a garage sale or junk shop I still ask if there's any lead. One time the lady running a summer long yard sale told me, "Well there's these blocks we use to hold the traps down. There scattered around the yard were 10 lb. blocks of lead formed in some kind of loaf pan. There was no happy ending there though as her husband came running out and stopped her from selling the blocks to me for 20 bucks. He said they just worked too well to hold the poly tarps down.

Lead just hasn't magically disappeared over night, it's out there you just have to look a little harder for it. Heck, I have more lead still tied up in decoy anchors, boat anchors, fishing snag hooks, fishing sinkers, down rigger weights, door stops, and counter weights than most casters have for a total stash. Just by being alert and getting the word out. Most of the time guys that made this stuff made it from easily available wheel weights.