comparison of HV to lower level loads

[Kevin Stenberg]

I didn't want to ad a new dimension to Lamar's HV load thread. But i was wondering.
I have been watching the powders used. For the HV loads. If i have intention on loading in a velocity range of 1900 to 2000. With the intent on making hunting loads. Would i look at powders that are being used in Lamars thread, or drop back to powders that have a slower softer burn rate?
The bullets i would be using are the normal Flat nose (311041 NOE hunter NOE 311-165/195). In the 06, 308, 30/30 cartridge.
Yes i could google search for any of the thousand threads on making your gun shoot good. But i am trying to learn more about burn rates and there affect on accuracy. Kevin

 

[Brad]

I view powders with cast as having a velocity window where they are at their best.
In something like 308, 30-30, or 06 I like 2400 for 15-1600. Going up to 1800 then I switch to RE 7. For 1900-2000 I would look at a 4895 type powder.
The 4350-4831 burn rate powders need a full case, or close to it, to burn properly. A case full in 30-30 will give a bit more than you are looking for but in 308 and 06 it will be well over.
My hunting loads in 30-30 used RE15 because I had a bunch on hand.

I would go with a 4895 of whatever flavor and be happy. Should do well for what you want.

 

[Rick]

For both 30-30 and 308 with 180 gr cast in the 1900 fps range I use SR4759. Pity it's been discontinued since I'm now down to about 20 pounds of it. But for your question your velocity range is pretty easy to achieve with hunting accuracy and powders in this burn range should work well for you. If I ran out of 4759 I would probably do as Brad said look at 4895, a great mid capacity cartridge powder and I've burned up several 8 pounders of it.

 

[Ian]

4895 and Dacron.

It does have its place.

For 30-30, use RX-7 and dial it back to your desired speed, something around 22-24 grains is probably about right.

 

[Rick]

4895 and Dacron.

It does have its place.

That could be true however it's place is in somebody else's loads, not mine.

 

[Ian]

How burn rates affect accuracy has to do with two separate things: The initial pressure rise and how effectively a given one works with the bullet shape and alloy choice to draw the bullet through the throat as true and gently as possible, and the overall pressure vs. burn efficiency thing.

Each powder has its happy place in a given system where it burns efficiently and consistently, giving consistent velocity and barrel exit time from one shot to the next. Below that pressure, things can become erratic and accuracy suffer. Of course there are a lot of other factors at play too that affect accuracy with a given powder or charge weight like barrel vibrations, muzzle exit timing, primer brisance, load density, bullet jump distance, etc.

 

[Ian]

View attachment 6349 That could be true however it's place is in somebody else's loads, not mine.

Well, we weren't talking about your loads, we were talking about Kevin's

There aren't many better ways to get consistent, accurate groups out of a .30-'06 at 1900 fps than some flavor of 4895 and a little properly-applied Dacron. Better ways at 2K+, and 1800-, but at 1900, it just plain works. I don't make it a practice myself either because I have no use for targeting that particular velocity in any of those calibers asked about, but I've done it, it works, and I can recommend it to someone else with confidence. The key to doing it safely is not screwing up the Dacron installation, and there are numerous blurbs on how to do that, including the article I wrote for the read-only section titled "buffers, fillers, and other taboo subjects".

 

[Rick]

To each their own, not for me. It's a real easy way to get yourself in big trouble real fast and for those that haven't tried it they should be made aware and not told anything but how safe and wonderful it is. Does it work done correctly? Sure. Can it be dangerous? You bet, it sure can be.

 

[Brad]

Given the choice I would use the 30-30 for hunting. Far easier to get a cast friendly hunting load. Use pretty much any powder you would for jacketed and get busy.
The 308 and 06 need a bit more tweaking to get good results in a good hunting velocity range.

Just my opinion.

 

[fiver]

I will say the 4895 and a filler [I use dryer lint in mine] is very stable and will not suffer from powder position problems.

here is how I learned a ton about how pressure affects my loads and such.
I simply shot one bullet all cast from the same pot of alloy, through one rifle, at @ the same pressure over a chronograph.
so what I did was picked a pressure point, 40-45K is a good number for a rifle.
and then I started exploring.
red-dot with a pistol and rifle primer... ditto green-dot/bulls-eye.
unique same primers and some Dacron filler
herco, 2400, H-110 ,aa-1680,4198,h-322 [filler] 3031 both with and without, 4895/4064/4350/rl-19/4831/rl-22 all with and without starting out around 30-K and coming up to the 40 or 45 zone.
I worked each powder from the bottom up and observed what was happening.
I then switched out bullets from a silhouette type to a throat fitting type and done it again at the higher end of things.
noting what and where things changed.
I done the same thing in a couple of my lever rifles in 44 and 45 colt starting out with clay's and titegroup and moving up until I was basically scooping a case full of slower powders and seating the bullet down on top.
incidentally 4895 works in the 44 and 45 and a hot primer helps them even more.

 

[Ian]

Everybody ought to do that, early on, and take good notes. They'd be miles and years ahead if they did.

I haven't done that all at once, but in sections at different times. Some powders get spooky when you start pushing above 30KPSI. Unique is one that never got crazy on me with pressure spikes, all the way up to leaded case neck/puckered primer pressures, very predictable. Others....not so much.

 

[Intheshop]

A "softer" launch is going to be easier for the rifle "system" to digest...... recoil,bedding,first shot predictability. As you go up the velocity/pressure set of stairs,little things start to creep into the system.

4895 is pretty dang soft around 2000fps. Nice gentle push on the system instead of a hard SMACK..... referring to bolt guns here.

 

[Ian]

It's even softer in a pogo stick, to the shooter, not the bullet. Minus the Dacron, of course.

 

[fiver]

4064 is even a little more so.
and 3031 has some accuracy surprises for those that aren't familiar with it.

H-322 is one of those powders that demands a filler but will absolutely shoot tiny teeny little groups at the 1900 or so fps area.
Littlegirls first deer was with H-322 in the 7.65 argie using one of my tubing bullets pushing things along to about 2350 fps.
that deer went down almost as fast as a neck shot deer with a 30-06, and it was punched through the shoulders.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

My apologies to all that have put their time and knowledge out here. After i wrote my opening post, i realized that there are a tons of threads i could have gone to to find out what i needed. Instead of wasting the talents of those that have responded
I thought that i had deleted my opening post. Before i went on my search. Kevin

 

[Ian]

There can never be too many threads like this, Kevin, besides, this one is custom-made to answer your questions, could you say that about the others you might find?

 

[fiver]

if you guy's don't start new threads your gonna end up reading about me going fishing, my garden [which still isn't finished] or my dog.
we are going into 'it's too damn hot to do much more than look out my window after 10-11 am' weather.

anyway I bet those other threads don't answer your specific questions.

 

[fiver]

dang it Ian we done it again.

 

[Ian]

There must be some parallel universe thing going on or something, thats like the fourth time in a month.

 

[Brad]

Kevin, it is far better to ask a clear, concise question like yours than to wallow around and try to piece things together.
If we didn't enjoy his stuff we wouldn't be here.