Comparison test of two 30-30 Win loads

[Rockydoc]

Anybody with QL that can give a safe load of 3031 185gr RD PC in 336 30/30? Thinking 27gr would give maybe 17-1800 fps with accuracy for 50/50 AC alloy. Not looking for lots of recoil but never used it before. Got some LeverE but it isn't recommended for heavies.

Popper, with the info you have given me QL shows a pressure of 28,209psi and a velocity of 1896fps with 27.0gr IMR 3031.
Rocky

 

[Bret4207]

Thank you Josh.

Just got back home but am walking like a very old & broken down man.

Back Story:
Last weekend I was at my ranch in west Texas filling feeders, carried 50# sacks of corn easily. Gents take care of your plumbing and don't be shy or scared to visit a professional when things feel off. I almost left it till too late to do something about it.

More rambling:
No range time this weekend but I'll probably do some fiddling in my workshop sitting down. This addiction is what it is.

The matter of proper fit and minimal sizing goes hand in hand in improving accuracy, IMHO. I'm not discounting the knowledge of the old timers but they had to contend with milsurps and other out of spec or worn out parts to make them work right.

Once I became more picky on the barrels etc the next step was to craft bullets that fit just right and are not damaged in any way during sizing and loading. Good case prep and good loading matter more than what people think. The "need" for massive loading output obscures the fact that accurate ammo takes time to craft. I take my time, even though I use progressive presses, to craft each round on it's own. This is done by sending only one round through at a time. I pay attention to each round and inspect it before placing it in the box.

I know I have more satisfaction at the range shooting a limited number of well-aimed shots than Marty McBlammer that empties as many magazines as possible in as short a period of time. He is a good donor of reloading brass though.

The ammo forms a major part of the rifle system and if just one element is out of whack performance can be poor or sub-optimal. Just blindly following the mantra of bigger size, or you can just size the bigger bullet smaller is an economical way in some ways but good outcomes are literally hit-or-miss. I know I'm probably preaching to the choir but it took me too long to get what the old timers such as Glenn and Charles were sharing with us, the ignorant and great unwashed...

Enough ranting, need to take meds...

All the little variables add up to either something good, bad or indifferent. Good observation.

 

[popper]

Thanks Rocky, just what I need. I may be loading for a get together where some kids are shooting so I don't want too stout a load. Dont know how many are shooters. I'll try the few i loaded to see how they work. Just don't want a load that might cause problems for them (or me).

 

[popper]

Changed the scope on the 30/30 so zero it @ 50 with FTX and LeverE loads. Then tried the 27gr 3031 185gr GC PC. Same zero. I like, thanks Rocky! A couple hit a bit low but suspect that is from the crunchy 3031 in the RCBS. Had to pull a couple due to bridging so gotta watch that. So my FTX, 3031 and 2400 loads have very close to same POI. Yea. Unique 170gr load are 2 circles down in the scope. Dialed in. 308W AR10 - had changed scope on it also checked zero - just a hair to left so it's good now. Used front stand and rear bag vs sandbags this time. She got me one of the collapsible wagons, works great. Range bag, stand, 2 rifles and ammo - saved my back a lot.
Went through ~ 80 rnds of 40SW (165 PB PC) practicing point and shoot - still pulling a bit low and left. 2 missed the shoot-n-see. Pick up from table to shoulder height and shoot, 7 yds. Getting better. 30/30 shows some upper left to lower right as barrel heats (single loaded and previous 20 shots),or just me?
Nap time.
edit:

 

[Rockydoc]

I tested .310" vs .3085" above and .310" was better. So I wondered if an even larger bullet diameter would be even better.

So is .311 better than .310?

I know the answer to that question will vary depending on the individual gun. Probably on the load, powder type and quantity etc.
But I have answered the question for my Ruger #1 30-30 with Ben's 7.2gr Bullseye and ~170 grain bullets.



These are 10 shot groups fired alternately so that barrel condition during the test average out.
There is no doubt, .310" is the clear winner here.

I have a load here that is "Minute of Deer" already. I don't know if 1270 fps muzzle velocity is enough for shots at deer at 100 yards. Your opinion on that?

I will start working on other powders now (2400; RX7; H414; W748; 3031). I wonder if I need a stronger alloy than 10 BHN with powder coat?
I would like velocity somewhere north of 1800 fps.

I bought some Lyman #2 from Rotometals which is around 15-16 BHN air cooled and aged and can be a basis for other alloys and for heat treating. But I think that with the powder coating and the limitation of velocity potential for a 30-30 Win I won't need heat treating (which can be tricky anyway with PC'd bullets).

If I find a load that will shoot a minute of angle @ 100 yards, I will stop searching right there.

Rocky

 

[Ian]

I would say that the only thing that is CLEAR from the above targets is that your bullets are yawing like crazy. To do much more than you already have, you will need gas checks, squarely and firmly seated as they are crimped on.

I'll also say that you are in danger of drawing and cementing false conclusions from your data regarding bullet body diameter in your rifle. Every time you change powder burn speed, alloy strength or constitution, seating depth, powder charge, or anything else that affects the bullet dynamic the sized diameter may cause different results on target.

Body diameter is a function of throat entrance diameter and smoothness of transition from chamber neck to throat entrance, period. Too big and it scrapes. Too small and it leaks. Most .30-30s have no throat at all, just a chamfer at the end of the chamber neck. Some have Throatus Collossus, which is its own challenge to fit.

If you want a full-power load you're looking at 2100 fps at 170 actual grains. Get there with IMR 3031 or WW 748 using jacketed load data for the equivalent bullet weights. 10 bhn powder coated will get you there if you do your part at the loading bench.

I would size .3095" for powder-coated gas checked bullets. .3090" might be better. The larger you go with soft PC bullets the more bad things happen to the bullet as it is being crammed into the bore with tens of thousands of pounds of pressure. The smaller it is, the less engraving resistance and less damage to the bullet.

Remember, your bullets are yawing which can mean many things but an unsquare base is a likely cause. Fast powder hammering a soft, heavy bullet doesn't do any favors to the back end of the bullet.

Here's sub-moa from a 174-grain bullet at 100 yards. Probably only 1850 fps though:





22.5 grains of Reloder 7, straight wheelweights at about 12-13 bhn.

 

[Ian]

one more thing about shooting powder coated plain base or checked designs without the check is that base band getting flame cut. Here's one I recovered from my bullet trap, load was Bullseye (whatever Ben recommended, I don't recall now). These neither touched the more with their noses nor got significantly flame-cut. They grouped about 1.5 MOA at 50 yards IIRC.

 

[Rally]

Ian,
Are you sure that is flame cutting? Looks like the same amount of material removed on the front of the second drive band, but not on the rear of the second drive band. Looks like maybe coming in contact with some material in the bullet trap. What did the other side of the bullet look like?
Wouldn't the grooves in line with the missing material have to be in the same condition, if it was flame cutting? I'm having a hard time picturing the flames path, to leave that type damage.

 

[Ian]

that bullet is the same all the way around and indeed the burnishing of the edges is from the recovery media in the trap. That is an example of a bullet which is NOT flame-cut.

 

[CZ93X62]

You could almost re-load and re-fire that one, Ian.

 

[fiver]

bullets are yawing like crazy.

I'll also say that you are in danger of drawing and cementing false conclusions from your data regarding bullet body diameter in your rifle

yes and yes.

I definitely would not count 310 as better than 311.
switching back and forth doesn't account for the two out of the group pull them back in line and account for sunlight errors on both groups..... then [well?]

 

[Rockydoc]

The bullets WERE gas checked and as square as I know how to make them.

I compared .3085” to .310” and .310 grouped batter.

I appreciate your critique, Ian. I will try your 22.5gr of RL 7.

What would you suggest I do to be sure my Gas checks are on straight?

 

[Rockydoc]

yes and yes.

I definitely would not count 310 as better than 311.
switching back and forth doesn't account for the two out of the group pull them back in line and account for sunlight errors on both groups..... then [well?]

Sunlight errors? Please explain.

 

[Ian]

Glint on the sights or crosshairs.

If those were gas-checked then you have some pretty big problems somewhere in the system causing that kind of yaw and big vertical.

 

[Bret4207]

To answer an earlier question, a 170 at 1270fps at 100 yards for deer? Yes, it will do the job given a good hit in most cases. Probably depends on the size of the deer. Those 90 lbs southern deer aren't the same as some of the 275 lbs northern deer. You're talking a 357 mag revolver in essence. But it's also going to have a trajectory that's got a lot of arc, wind is going to push it easier and an error in range estimation in the field may well lead to a lightly wounded animal. I'd have a lot more confidence if you said it was 25-50 yards from a blind or something more like 1800 fps. It will not result in a "drop at the shot" type kill in most instances. If you have good tracking skill or a dog for the job you'll probably get your meat, but I'd keep working at it myself.

 

[popper]

The 311 seemed to be slower, reading the target (lower group) so I'd sy the 310 is better. The slower fps could be too slow for stability and give non-round holes. Flame cutting of Ian's base shows a just rounded base edge. Doesn't take much to skew the target results. I messed with the base of 40sw and found I got nice circular pattern, same with BO PB with bases not square with axis. Rocky's pattern doesn't appear the same. My guess just deformed soft alloy, random. You really need a solid shooting platform for these kind of discussions to remove any shooter variable. For deer hunting I'd bring up the fps. I have a 1400fps 170gr PB load for BO pistol but that is for pigs that I don't care to recover/eat and consider it a 50 yd max load. Basically 357 carbine type load. I tried soft AC 185 gr GC (BLL & ~1800 fps) in my Marlin 30/30 with 311 and that works but marlin takes a larger and usually harder bullet. IMHO as psi goes up, harder, then soft then much harder - generally due to the fast pressure rise of the slower loads. Adding the GC to soft for slow fps works too.

 

[Rockydoc]

To answer an earlier question, a 170 at 1270fps at 100 yards for deer? Yes, it will do the job given a good hit in most cases. Probably depends on the size of the deer. Those 90 lbs southern deer aren't the same as some of the 275 lbs northern deer. You're talking a 357 mag revolver in essence. But it's also going to have a trajectory that's got a lot of arc, wind is going to push it easier and an error in range estimation in the field may well lead to a lightly wounded animal. I'd have a lot more confidence if you said it was 25-50 yards from a blind or something more like 1800 fps. It will not result in a "drop at the shot" type kill in most instances. If you have good tracking skill or a dog for the job you'll probably get your meat, but I'd keep working at it myself.

Thank you for the feedback, Bret.

1270 fps at the muzzle. I don't know what it would be at 100 yards.

These north Florida deer are definitely small.

Trajectory: I shoot from a shooting house and all of the deer I have killed there have been at a distance of 100 to 120 yards. Never closer.

All my kills have been "drop at the shot" because I shoot them in the neck. My tracking skills are nil. Shooting them in the neck is no great feat, I practice placing all my shots within a 3" target at the range I anticipate my game to be. If you can confidently do that you can shoot them in the neck.

I will be more comfortable with a flatter shooting, harder hitting load. I am going to follow the lead of Ian with his RX7 22.5 grains with a Lyman 31141 gas checked powder coated 10 BHN bullet and go from there.

 

[Rockydoc]

The 311 seemed to be slower, reading the target (lower group) so I'd sy the 310 is better. The slower fps could be too slow for stability and give non-round holes.

And the mystery gets more mystifying: The average velocity for 10 shots: The .311 was faster, not slower! .310"=1273.8fps. .311"= 1285.3fps
Go figger!

I don't think the difference of 12fps would make a difference, would it?

 

[Rockydoc]

Glint on the sights or crosshairs.

If those were gas-checked then you have some pretty big problems somewhere in the system causing that kind of yaw and big vertical.

Ian, Would the gas check seater die from NOE be the solution to my "pretty big problem"? Or do you have a different suggestion?
I appreciate the help you and all the rest of the forum are giving.

Rocky

 

[fiver]

12 is nothing.
but I'd expect the larger diameter to be a little faster.
if your blocking all the gas, or more of the gas, you should have a little more pressure and a bit more velocity.
that's just how it works.
and is why quite often you'll see cast loads with a slightly higher pressure map than a jacketed bullet, even with the higher engraving pressure of the jacketed bullet.