RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Myself, I like boiling water and a brass brush. Couple of tight patches, then look at it.
Copper removal
- Thread starter Tomme boy
- Start date
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
I didn't video it before I shot it. But the melonite coating was defiantly all the way through the bore. It was gloss black like the exterior. I was wondering if this was actually copper because of the color of it. It just looked off.
I know from other barrels that have this treatment there is always brownish orange fouling that comes out as you clean it for the very first time. If it is an oxide then it is probably pretty hard and even JB won't take it out.
So far all I have done with it was blast some clay pigeons laying on the berm. I just mounted a 1-6 scope on it and I wanted to get it clean as a baseline. I ran into a guy here that had some 69gr Sierra MK bullets for sale. He was done with reloading as he can no longer find primers or powders in town here anymore. I bought the 500 rd box he had for $100. He said he has had them for about 15 years and was happy to get what he got. I about broke my arm trying to get my wallet out of my pocket so fast. But this was why I wanted to get it spotless to start. And I have the WOA upper ready to go also.
I know from other barrels that have this treatment there is always brownish orange fouling that comes out as you clean it for the very first time. If it is an oxide then it is probably pretty hard and even JB won't take it out.
So far all I have done with it was blast some clay pigeons laying on the berm. I just mounted a 1-6 scope on it and I wanted to get it clean as a baseline. I ran into a guy here that had some 69gr Sierra MK bullets for sale. He was done with reloading as he can no longer find primers or powders in town here anymore. I bought the 500 rd box he had for $100. He said he has had them for about 15 years and was happy to get what he got. I about broke my arm trying to get my wallet out of my pocket so fast. But this was why I wanted to get it spotless to start. And I have the WOA upper ready to go also.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I'm out of my wadding pool again here .....
Several years ago I wanted exactly what Melonite was , so I did some digging . It isn't a coating and done properly should have light places .
The short version is it's a variation on nitrided steel parts and functionally is a chemical surface hardening .
The parts are heat soaked to I think 400° then fogged with ammonia . Again the short probably oversimplified version the specific process and vendor has chemical and temperature variables but this is a rough umbrella .
Several years ago I wanted exactly what Melonite was , so I did some digging . It isn't a coating and done properly should have light places .
The short version is it's a variation on nitrided steel parts and functionally is a chemical surface hardening .
The parts are heat soaked to I think 400° then fogged with ammonia . Again the short probably oversimplified version the specific process and vendor has chemical and temperature variables but this is a rough umbrella .
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
That story repeats among various rifles over and over again! I have a semi-theory that, while a perfect barrel is preferable, a ratty old barrel with proper bullets and charges can work just fine. With semi autos and higher pressures though, things get tricky post haste!!! Out of my league, for sure.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I like that line!
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
Talked to a guy on another forum. He has ar15 barrels made for him and he was saying that he did not know what the copper looking stuff was other than rust. He also commented that the black coating was removed by the solvents. Which I don't believe. You can see what looks like splotchy patterns of carbon all the way down. Well that is the nitride coating that is still in the barrel. And the rest is the SS finish where the coating has been removed.
So, I broke out the JB and kroil and scrubbed the barrel about 50 times up and down. It feels extremely smooth. But the copper colored fouling did not come out what so ever.
So I broke out the fire lapping kit. I rolled 2 powder coated bullets in 600grit and sent them down the barrel with 1.1gr bullseye. It is completely gone! So I am going to keep an eye on it so it doesn't rust. According to that guy when the black coating is removed rust forms very easy.
So, I broke out the JB and kroil and scrubbed the barrel about 50 times up and down. It feels extremely smooth. But the copper colored fouling did not come out what so ever.
So I broke out the fire lapping kit. I rolled 2 powder coated bullets in 600grit and sent them down the barrel with 1.1gr bullseye. It is completely gone! So I am going to keep an eye on it so it doesn't rust. According to that guy when the black coating is removed rust forms very easy.
Ian
Notorious member
Depends on the SS. Stainless Ruger 10/22 barrels rust on the outside very easily. I agree with the guy that it's the coating on the inside of the barrel coming off and an oxidation forming on the bare spots.
I have nearly lost my mind trying to get "copper" out of a couple of barrels before I realized it was actually light rust that looks a little like copper in the bore scope. A wipe with a patch soaked in a de-rusting solution took care of it. You can also tell copper from rust sometimes by WHERE you see it. Copper doesn't generally collect in the inside corners, but rust does.
I have nearly lost my mind trying to get "copper" out of a couple of barrels before I realized it was actually light rust that looks a little like copper in the bore scope. A wipe with a patch soaked in a de-rusting solution took care of it. You can also tell copper from rust sometimes by WHERE you see it. Copper doesn't generally collect in the inside corners, but rust does.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
People have a misconception that all stainless is just that, stainless and will not rust. Not true. Some stainless has an iron content that will rust. Best example I ever saw was scuba diving in the Red Sea, a body water with very high salt content. When we were done and packing up gear on the beach, I pulled my dive knife out of the sheath and it was ORANGE. Instant rust in that water.
I wonder if the alloy content of stainless with high iron content causes the iron to rust more quickly than if were a plain carbon steel barrel. Dissimilar metals cause unexpected things to happen where they touch. So, I did a search on Google and found this pretty simple explanation of what is going on. The company that published it sells passivation products. So, it begs the question, should one coat the inside of a stainless barrel with a passivation product?
I wonder if the alloy content of stainless with high iron content causes the iron to rust more quickly than if were a plain carbon steel barrel. Dissimilar metals cause unexpected things to happen where they touch. So, I did a search on Google and found this pretty simple explanation of what is going on. The company that published it sells passivation products. So, it begs the question, should one coat the inside of a stainless barrel with a passivation product?
Why Does Stainless Steel Rust?
Iron and Chromium
Stainless steel is an alloy made up of iron and at least 10.5% chromium as well as lesser amounts of other elements such as carbon, silicon or manganese. It is the chromium that resists corrosion, making the steel “stainless.” There are over 150 recognized grades of stainless steel, and each has different properties and rust resistance. Some are better at resisting rust than others, but all can rust.Chromium Oxide Protects
Chromium in stainless steel resists rust by forming a thin layer of chromium oxide on the surface of the steel. This is called the “passive layer” and it is a reliable protective coating that is even capable of repairing itself when damaged in many cases.Free Iron Rusts
When rust is visible on the surface of stainless steel, it is often the result of what is called “free iron”. Free iron is iron that is separate from the alloy, and therefore not protected by the chromium oxide. The potential sources of free iron are many. The important things are:- Free iron on the surface of the stainless steel can rust.
- Free iron is difficult to remove. Scrubbing or cleaning with soap and water are not enough.
Passivation Removes Free Iron
Free iron can be removed from the surface of stainless steel through a process called passivation. Once the free iron is removed, the chromium layer is left to form chromium oxide and protect the steel from future corrosion.
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
I took it out yesterday and shot a few rounds. I went home and ran some bore solvent through it and dried it out. There is now copper in the bore but it does not look like the stuff in the vid.
And I will say when I was cleaning it with the JB, the gas port dragged like crazy. None of my other AR barrels can be felt. What looks like a burr is erosion. What's funny is the Sabre Defence barrel has the most rounds out of it and has the least amount of erosion. I mean hardly anything.
And I will say when I was cleaning it with the JB, the gas port dragged like crazy. None of my other AR barrels can be felt. What looks like a burr is erosion. What's funny is the Sabre Defence barrel has the most rounds out of it and has the least amount of erosion. I mean hardly anything.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
If it shoots well, throw the bore scope away and never look at it again.
As for copper solvents, most of them use ammonia to dissolve the copper. There’s a LOT of marketing hype surrounding those products but as near as I can tell, very little actual difference. Some of the solvents have higher concentrations of ammonia than others but there is no secret ingredient. The marketers will claim their product is special, but they get paid to make those claims.
In my opinion, the foaming bore cleaners are just gimmicks. They work, but no better or worse than the liquid cleaners.
JB bore paste is one of the products I keep on the cleaning product shelf above my bench. I use it when I need to but generally don’t need to use it. It does work well.
As for copper solvents, most of them use ammonia to dissolve the copper. There’s a LOT of marketing hype surrounding those products but as near as I can tell, very little actual difference. Some of the solvents have higher concentrations of ammonia than others but there is no secret ingredient. The marketers will claim their product is special, but they get paid to make those claims.
In my opinion, the foaming bore cleaners are just gimmicks. They work, but no better or worse than the liquid cleaners.
JB bore paste is one of the products I keep on the cleaning product shelf above my bench. I use it when I need to but generally don’t need to use it. It does work well.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Guy at work had a Stainless Gold Cup. Shot some sort of PPC type game. Came to work with it one day whining about how he was going to sue Colt and the shop that sold it to him because it was flecked with rust. I asked him where it had been and what he'd done as far as cleaning. He said he'd run it for several weeks at the shoots, in the rain too, and didn't need to do any cleaning because "it's stainless". So I had to explain stainless doesn't mean "won't ever rust" and that it was his own darn fault (I used far cruder terms) that the gun was in the condition it was. IIRC it was the sandblasted/matted top area of the slide that was the worst, but the gun had some freckles everywhere. I broke the gun down and used the cleaning stuff there at the barracks and all it took was a brass brush to remove the freckling. He was a freakin' idiot to start with, but that's a whole 'nuther story in itself.People have a misconception that all stainless is just that, stainless and will not rust. Not true. Some stainless has an iron content that will rust. Best example I ever saw was scuba diving in the Red Sea, a body water with very high salt content. When we were done and packing up gear on the beach, I pulled my dive knife out of the sheath and it was ORANGE. Instant rust in that water.
I wonder if the alloy content of stainless with high iron content causes the iron to rust more quickly than if were a plain carbon steel barrel. Dissimilar metals cause unexpected things to happen where they touch. So, I did a search on Google and found this pretty simple explanation of what is going on. The company that published it sells passivation products. So, it begs the question, should one coat the inside of a stainless barrel with a passivation product?
Why Does Stainless Steel Rust?
Iron and Chromium
Stainless steel is an alloy made up of iron and at least 10.5% chromium as well as lesser amounts of other elements such as carbon, silicon or manganese. It is the chromium that resists corrosion, making the steel “stainless.” There are over 150 recognized grades of stainless steel, and each has different properties and rust resistance. Some are better at resisting rust than others, but all can rust.
Chromium Oxide Protects
Chromium in stainless steel resists rust by forming a thin layer of chromium oxide on the surface of the steel. This is called the “passive layer” and it is a reliable protective coating that is even capable of repairing itself when damaged in many cases.
Free Iron Rusts
When rust is visible on the surface of stainless steel, it is often the result of what is called “free iron”. Free iron is iron that is separate from the alloy, and therefore not protected by the chromium oxide. The potential sources of free iron are many. The important things are:
- Free iron on the surface of the stainless steel can rust.
- Free iron is difficult to remove. Scrubbing or cleaning with soap and water are not enough.
Passivation Removes Free Iron
Free iron can be removed from the surface of stainless steel through a process called passivation. Once the free iron is removed, the chromium layer is left to form chromium oxide and protect the steel from future corrosion.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
I use Bore Tech Eliminator...........don't shoot much copper jacketed stuff though. Instructions say to use a nylon brush. It supposedly works for copper, ergo the nylon brush. I like it because it's virtually odorless. Definitely, no ammonia odor.
Hoppe's #9.............I despise the odor.
Hoppe's #9.............I despise the odor.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Best I ever used was the Outer's Foul Out reverse plating system. While I never had any problems with it, others did.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
See now for me Hoppe' #9 is the first smell I remember that was related to guns. When my Dad would put his guns on the kitchen table and clean them, I got to hold them and touch them and I was obsessed with guns from my first memory. So, Hoppe's always takes me back to a very happy bunch of memories from my youth.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
No guns in our house, growing up. Father was turret gunner during WWII. Aerial gunners fired shotguns, 1911's and Thompsons. He liked the Thompson but not the 1911. No fishing tackle, either. I'm his exact opposite. Learned fishing and hunting, bullet casting by myself.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Okay, slight tangent based upon Bret's comment. And this is about somebody from his neck of the woods, Lowville. My cousin's father-in-law, John was a great guy. Worked a farm all his life and also had a full time job as a hospital orderly. Unfortunately, he developed Alzheimer's as he got older and my cousin took him in to live with them. Wife had dies years before. John was fine by himself and my cousin had chickens so he would tend the chickens and do other stuff around the house while my cousing Marc and his wife were at work. One day Marc comes home and when John greats him he smells strange. Marc thinks he smells like exhaust. He asks John what he did that day and he responds it had been a typical day. But Marc was concerned that he might be getting into other stuff and not remembering. Marc was afraid he would burn the house down.
So, this went on for quite a while. John continues to have this strange smell coming off him, but claims he is not doing anything different. Marc keeps checking the garage for any changes and finds nothing.
Then one morning Marc happens to be headed to the shower and looks into John's room. There he is, standing in front of the mirror, spraying his armpits with a can of WD-40. It is both a sad and hysterical story at the same time. Poor John's mind was going away, but he was still happy as a clam and knew he needed to put on deodorant every morning. Marc has no idea how he managed to find the WD-40 and start using it as deodorant. But he'd probably been using it for over a month.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.