COWW composition

[Matt_G]

So I as I posted here a while back, I finally got my COWW blended like I wanted.
Sent a sample off to be tested and got the results today.
This COWW was obtained from about 1997 to 2010.
95.676% Pb
3.217% Sb
0.553% Sn
0.499% Fe
Rest is traces too small to measure.

About 2009 I got about 600 pounds of lead from a plumber in Denver.
Stuff was a lot harder than I thought it should be per my Cabin Tree tester.
Looking back on it I knew I had screwed up by melting it all down without thinking to keep the joints separate.
Sometimes I can be a real dumb a$$.

Anyways, I sent a sample of that stuff as well.
90.898% Pb
1.539% Sb
4.256% Sn
3.113% Fe

I wasn't surprised by the amount of tin but I am surprised there is over 1.5% antimony in it.
And over 3% Iron?
I wonder how that got in there.
At least now I know why this "soft" lead is so damn hard.

 

[RicinYakima]

Unless tested, you are just p*****g in the wind. Hardness doesn't tell you much, go for the chemistry.

 

[Bliksem]

COWW's are a PITA and once I got away from them things just started to work for me. I know I'm a newbie compared to many here and in the cast bullet fraternity but the heyday of COWW's was before I started on this journey. This really came to roost once I graduated from pistol to rifle as known good alloy removes a huge question mark from the equation.

I don't use a hardness tester, I actually gifted the one I had to a member on CB, as it was leading me down a wrong path. As Professor Kettering said I was "going wrong with confidence".

Once I started to pay attention, and clams for good alloy, things started to fall into place and I can now craft ammunition that will hit where I aim. Price is what you pay, value is what you get.

 

[Mitty38]

Issue with Iron content.
Iron will absorb into other alloys real easy if it has oxidized.
We use thin oxidized iron at work to alloy with aluminum, and zinc alloys on purpose.
The Iron will combine with the other metals in the mix better and at a far lower temperature, if oxidized. It will join with the alloy at the melting point of the other metals and instead of the melting point of iron. More of a low temp chemical bond then a melt in.

During my zinc experiments, when I still had used of a spectrometer calibrated for lead.
I had once melted a very rusty bucket of wheel weights without cleaning or washing them first. Just to see what would happen. That alloy ended up as donated metal for a fellow I know who makes fishing weights.

Your Iron probably came from Iron oxide deposits in the pipes. My guess is someone had very bad plumbing, or water.

IMO.....I would probably mix it with some known pure and try and get the Iron down to less then .5 % before putting it down the barrel of a gun.

 

[abj]

As to the plumber's lead. Those soldered connections are loaded with tin as you see in your test, no surprise to me either. The Iron may have come from the same connections from an iron sleeve connector. Some of the ones I melted down the iron connector had almost rusted away into an iron dust. I think some solders had Antimony in them as well. I have no idea if the iron content will hurt the barrel or not. Hopefully someone with more knowledge on the iron will respond.
Tony

 

[Bret4207]

Alloy composition is of far more importance than a relative Bhn. But convincing people of that is darn near "tilting at windmills"!

 

[Matt_G]

Your Iron probably came from Iron oxide deposits in the pipes. My guess is someone had very bad plumbing, or water.

I can remember that some of it was pretty nasty stuff.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Alloy composition is of far more importance than a relative Bhn. But convincing people of that is darn near "tilting at windmills"!

Yep, that is exactly why I blended it all.
So it would be the same composition and I could get it tested and know what I was working with.
Don't really care what the Bhn is, I just wanted to know what was in it.

Anyone know of a way to get some of that Iron fluxed out of that "plumbers" lead?
It would be nice to get that percentage down some.
Good thing I really don't have a pressing need for that stuff.
I have other options.

 

[Mitty38]

Anyone know of a way to get some of that Iron fluxed out of that "plumbers" lead?
It would be nice to get that percentage down some.
Good thing I really don't have a pressing need for that stuff.
I have other options.

I asked our Met. Chemist at work. So according to Rick our Metallurgist- Chemist.

He says, that there are methods, but they require complicated costly procedures. A bit more then just a melt and flux.
That the best, most efficient way to deal with Iron in the mix is dilution, in other words mix it with good stuff.

He also said that if you can get the mix down to under .75% iron, there should be no recognizably effect on malleability in the lead alloy.

Basically, his recommendation, is to do what we do with high iron ingot.
Either dilute it with good till you have good.
OR melt it into other known good alloys, in amount that will not effect the mix,say a 1 in 40 ratio. Until it is all used up.
OR put it aside. Do the math, when tin is needed. Then, if the high Fe ingot can provide enough tin, without taking the mix over .75 % iron. Or changing your Antimony to much. Use it, instead of your good expensive tin.

Just thought I would ask him and post what his response is for you.
Only quoting what he told me. Hope it helps you decide what to do with the High Fe stuff.

 

[Matt_G]

Thank you VERY much Emmett!
Really appreciate you doing that for me.

 

[fiver]

steam [you know condensed water vapor] will help get a bunch of it out.
mmmm hmm purposely shooting water into your lead.

 

[Mitty38]

Ye,what could go wrong there?

Boom?

We used to do that chlorine to achieve magnesium removal. Yes, basically injecting Clorox bleach into hot molten metal. Needless to say it was not a safe procedure. It was replaced as soon as a more cost effective dry fluxing procedure became available.
Our lost work injury rate went way down.

 

[fiver]

believe it or not steaming the lead alloy is still used in many shot towers just before the alloy is dumped into the screen and dropped to the waiting water below..

 

[Mitty38]

Yes,
Dropping molten metal thru a mist of water. Into water.
Or even throwing steam onto the surface of molten metal. Can be Quite beneficial.
Is a very effective way of washing away surface containment or allowing the metal to form a "skin". Thus allowing it to form a sphere better when dropped, and also creating a kind of barrier in some cases against corrosion. As in shot making.

We even spray water on our ingots, while they are still gelatinous. Besides cooling quicker it removes all contaminants on and just below the surface. Plus gives it mild anti corrosive properties, good enough to have the product in storage for a while.

However, If liquids are introduced into molten metal, considerably below the surface, it goes boom. Except under very controlled circumstances, like a water or bleach injection system.
Were talking about expanding the water or the applicable liquids molecules almost as far as they will go, before injecting into the metal. Super HEATING Beyond the point of normal steam. Must be precisely metered and controlled. Very expensive, time consuming, energy consuming, and meticulous procedure. Then no chance of explosion (if...if....everything works right.)

 

[RBHarter]

Water to steam has a 1 to 17,000 expansion rate . Chlorine is an oxidizer ..... Ammonia seems like it would be considerably safer as a skinning agent over chlorine .

 

[Mitty38]

Water to steam has a 1 to 17,000 expansion rate . Chlorine is an oxidizer ..... Ammonia seems like it would be considerably safer as a skinning agent over chlorine .

We used to use a chlorine-water mix to remove magnesium from aluminum. Brings that stuff right to the top.
The water in the mix took care of other impurities like high concentrations of iron, ect.
Only reason I mentioned it (chlorine), is that is the system I am most familiar with.
Not that it is used on lead.
However I have witnessed the operation of water - steam injection systems at other facilities, and they work much the same. Just used for different results, reasons, and alloys. So, therfore I associated, Sorry if I cause any confusion.

We primarily work with aluminum, ZA-8, and zinc. So I am not a lead expert by any means, that is why I am here, to learn what I do not know. However I do have access to a top notch chemist ( my job is kinda in part, being his little beech, lol), and can pick his brain from time to time, till he gets tired of me. LOL

Very rarely we will do lead, or Babbitt, maybe once a year. The chemist uses equipment in his office to analyze those himself, so I am not too involved in those processes. Then that furnace under goes a decontamination procedure that takes about a day, before it can be used for something else. In fact we will usually wait to do this right before a full furnace reline.

Have heard of ammonia in a liquid form being used in smelting, but as far as it goes I am pretty much mute.
We use an Ammonia based compound as a flux, in a dry form, very safe. The dross it produces will just stink you out of the shop. Linger in your clothes, ect. I have tried it on lead but it seams to like to remove the tin.

 

[Mitty38]

Any body have a diagram of chilled shot being made, a good article, or a link to a very good video.
I would like to see it. I have a good Idea of how it works. I have seen a basic diagram. Just curious about the exact particulars..

 

[fiver]

now day's most of it is made by blowing the lead up in the air, letting it roll over and dropping down.
there's only a few places that still makes dropped shot. [Lawrence is one of them still using a tower]
chilled and magnum are made the same way, the alloy is the only difference.

there is however a video on U-tube that visits some of the old shot towers that are still standing, that's kinda cool.
and there is a video on there somewhere that shows the steam tube cleaning process being used in a shot tower somewhere [Peru or eastern Europe? I don't remember]
Peru would be the Eagle Brand shot making company, but I don't think it's them.
there is also some real good home made shot makers on there with some real impressive setup's.

 

[Rockydoc]

Iron oxide is abrasive. It is what Jeweler's Rouge, the stuff we use to polish gold castings, is made of. Maybe that alloy will polish your bore, LOL.

 

[Matt_G]

^^
Yeah, I'm glad I have no pressing need for that stuff.
I can get by for quite a while and never touch that high Iron content alloy.

 

[Mitty38]

New bullet alloy for the guys who like to wear out, oops, Break-lap in their new Barrels.

Course, a coat of Powder Coat, would take care of that just fine.