CZ 97B with LEE 200SWC

Mickdidit

New Member
Picked up a CZ97B (45ACP). Seems to be picky with my loads. I've been loading 5.5 grains unique under a 200 SWC for decades for Colts and an RIA, rarely a FTF. The CZ will FTF the 200SWC at least once per magazine loading (10 rounds). I've gone both directions on OAL and charge weight to no avail. The jam is head low/nose high. Taper crimp is used. New Starline brass is used, mixed range brass had the same issue. Considering trying the Lee 230TC. Nice 45, accurate and comfortable. Yes, I'm at a loss...ideas? Thoughts?
TIA
 

Ian

Notorious member
Open the feed lips a little at the front so the rim rises more under the breech face as the nose bumps up the ramp, or consider another bullet design. Pretty much anything will gobble up the
Lee 230 TC loaded to 1.200", but at that OAL reduce your book loads a little because it's crowding the powder space more than most 230-grain bullet data reflects.

Something else is to check that the rim is sliding easily under the extractor and not binding at the feed angle your 200 swc's give it. If the extractor has an abrupt angle on the bottom it can hammer the case head back down into the magazine rather than let the groove and rim slide underneath.
 

Mickdidit

New Member
Ian...I was thinking about the extractor too. The new brass shows witness marks left from the extractor. I've probably put 500 rounds through this gun, breakin/deburr period? Will try the TCs
**The Lyman 4th edition shows the Lee 230 TC with an OAL of 1.170! Short!
 
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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
This will sound kinda odd but can help diagnose the problem.
Remove the recoil spring and reassemble the handgun. Make a few dummy rounds, I would say 3 minimum, with the bullet and OAL you want to try. Load them in the magazine and put in gun. Slowly work slide by hand. With no spring to fight it is easy to go very slowly. Watch what happens as round is stripped from magazine.
Keep working slide to run them the magazine. Is the issue always a last round? Second to last round? Early in magazine? Is spring pressure in magazine the issue? Is it OAL where the bullet is seated too long or too short?
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Without the gun in front of me I cannot diagnose the problem but that sounds like a magazine problem.
Is the failure tied to a particular magazine or does it occur with any magazine?

If you have one magazine that presents the top cartridge at a different angle, that could be the problem. A round nose profile might not care if one mag is slightly different but the problem may appear with a different bullet type.

If you have more than one magazine: Load the magazines, field strip the pistol and insert each loaded magazine into the frame and take note of the angle of the top round. It is difficult to spot small differences in feed angles with the mags out of the gun, but with some other points of visual reference in your view (the frame, ejector, etc. ) it's much easier to spot minor variations.

I find that the 200gr SWC profile works best if just a tiny bit of the front driving band is proud of the case mouth. The official measurement is "about the width of a fingernail" ;)
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
If an autopistol is going to 'choke' on a bullet design, it will be with the SWC form. That seating depth info by P&P is my method with both the SWC/H&G #68 forgeries and with the Lee TC design--about .020" of front drive band peeking out of the case mouth.

I think very highly of the CZ-97 pistols. They really should bring them out in 10mm, if for no other reason than to re-kindle the Bren Ten legacy.
 
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Mickdidit

New Member
I ran 400 rounds of Lee 452 230 TCs through the CZ97 last week. About 6 FTF now it eats them just fine. I loaded up 200 Lee 200 gr SWCs for test this week. This CZ seems to have a "break in" period. We shall see.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
When my shop brought in autopistols in 1987 (classic S&W 3 and 4 digit model numbers and SIG-Sauers) all those attended a 2-day range school in which 500+ rounds got fired to get the mostly new pistols broke in. We taught those schools for close to a year (at least one session per month) for the rest of 1987 (Aug-Dec) and well into 1988. I recommend ANYONE that wants to carry ANY PISTOL for social engineering projects do likewise with their chosen arm(s) to gain familiarity with its function and wear the parts in with actual service. Yes, Glock and SIG-Sauer claim that you can establish lube on slide rails and carry their pistols into combat without break-in. The arrogance of factory reps from both firms was and is vast and unlimited, but I restrained myself from bringing up our respective nations' win/loss records in World Wars in the context of their recommendations. It was a struggle to remain silent, but a good LT in our training bureau gave us pointed sideways glances to steer our remarks toward diplomacy's smooth waters rather than into the preferred rocky shores of directness.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I've never been good at diplomacy and I have suffered as a result of it.

As for new pistols working perfectly "out of the box"; it is not something I would trust my life on. I've seen pistol that were 100% reliable out of the box but I haven't seen it enough times to make me forgo a controlled break-in regiment. Test flights and shake down cruises are in my vocabulary.

The all steel CZ pistols are a bit Old School and I admire the engineering that goes into those designs. I think the Czechs are very good mechanical engineers and skilled at making firearms. Even with their skill, I would expect some break in would be required.
 

Rick H

Well-Known Member
My Department was issuing S&W Model 66's and Model 39's to plain clothes officers with the individual officers able to carry almost any reasonable handgun just so they could qualify with it (ammo at their own expense). Then one day in 1992 the "Day Lords" drank the Glock Kool Aid (and got all sorts of freebies in the process, but that is another story).

I had to put up my Sig P220 and switch to Glocks in 40 S&W. We had a 600 rd. transition training during which we saw all sorts of problems with fail to eject, fail to feed malfunctions. There were a few caused by limp wristing but far too many cases compared with even S&W Model 59's. Hmmmmm. Glock came in and replaced all the magazines, they redesigned them so they didn't need to be pulled from the pistol upon trying to reload, but didn't improve functioning.....later another new set of magazines, this time with steel inserts and the damned things still malfunctioned, better but not by much. Glock came out and replaced recoil springs, to a captive system and replaced them a second time to another improved design spec. Yeah Glock claimed that they could be fired thousands of times new out of the box, dropped from airplanes and function reliably.....only they could not.

There is a reason the transition course had so many function drills, we needed them. After 3 sets of redesigned magazines, two sets of reconfigured recoil springs and work done on the triggers the problems seem to have settled down. They threw in new barrels too, so I didn't get the dreaded "Glock Smile" on my brass. I still have mine in the safe, but don't carry it. Our department had 120 new Glocks, and experienced over a 20% failure rate with those pistols new........that is each day at the range, 20% of the weapons had at least one malfunction. Listen to the Kool Aid salesmen at your own peril.

I have no idea what "Generation" Glocks we had. They tell me they are much better now. Mine runs well now. The process to get there was long. I carry a cheap little S&W Shield 40. It has about 900 rds through it. Zero malfunctions, zero fail to fire, zero fail to eject. Leaded like crazy with cast until I started powder coating.....but went bang every single time I pulled the trigger.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
My shop heard and saw the goat-ropes Rick H described above with Glocks, primarily concerning the 40 caliber editions. The 40 S&W caliber and the Glocks were approved in mid-1994, a short time after the Gen 3 editions hit the streets. Among the daughters, sons-in-law, and ourselves there are over a dozen examples in 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP calibers. All have been reliable and reasonably accurate. "GLOCK Perfection" has been the company's motto. "Close, but not quite" has been my response. ALL MECHANISMS need break-in, and they all need cleaning and preventive maintenance. Run them and respect them like you do any firearm or motor vehicle, and all will be well. The Pure Food & Drug Act of 1906 sought to address the problems with patent remedies and the snake oil salesmen that hawked them. The personnel displaced by this legislation found work selling automobiles and firearms.
 
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popper

Well-Known Member
Handled the G17 when they came out, testing for SS. Didn't think much of it. All my SA pistols ran fine out of the box but the XDs did go back for the 'trigger' fix.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I've seen brand new Glocks come out of the box and be 100% reliable. Of course, I've seen other pistols do the same.
That anecdotal evidence hardly proves a thing.
Just because I've seen guns that were reliable "out of the box" doesn't mean I would be comfortable trusting them "out of the box".

Nothing mechanical is perfect and there's no way that every single example of some device will be perfect; even if most of them are.
 

Bliksem

Active Member
My CZ97 likes the 230TC as well. My preferred carry platform is the 1911 as it is what I have trained with the most over many years. I have tried Glock pistols but they just feel alien and offer no advantage to me. My only pistol with significant plastic is a FNH45 and the reason I have it is because I got it for a steal a few years ago. I include a pic I sometimes use to annoy the Gluck fanbois. i have nothing against these pistols, just dislike the rabid followers of Gaston.
8E396B4C-A4CC-43BF-A8BB-2E1D33F494A8.jpeg
 

Ian

Notorious member
The FNH 45 is actually a very decent pistol. I'm still disappointed that they weren't adopted by our military.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Do like Buckshot does--summer season casting uniform is campaign hat, jockstrap, and huaraches. It can't be unseen, once beheld.

One of our nephews has an FNH in 40 S&W. Great pistol, just not available in Kalifornistan.
 
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