Damned recapping rods

[Walks]

Don't start Me on dillon.

 

[CZ93X62]

I am very fond of the Lyman M-dies and their handgun-variant Multi-Charge Die set. On the semi-progressive P-W P-200 machine, the use of the Multi-Charge die combines two die functions into mixed motions, saving a die step.

I also use the RCBS Neck Expander die and spuds for rifle work. My own view is that the M-die work on the case mouth does better work with plain-based bullets than the RCBS system, and that both are great when gas-checked bullets are the bill of fare.

 

[Walks]

I've had a Lyman Multi-Expand system since they came out. Use it when ever I can.
I agree RCBS makes fine expander dies, but not so much for plain base lead bullets.

I've heard their Cowboy Dies are made with M-Type Expanders, but I had Lyman Die sets for every cartridge I load lead into before they ever came out. When you have 2-5 Die sets for every cartridge you load for, it's kinda hard to justify the expense of another one.

 

[Ian]

If the RCBS expander isn't working extremely well for your plain-based bullets, you might be using the wrong size.

 

[S Mac]

I was wondering why gas checked, plain base would react differently, maybe the gas check can overcome too much neck tension?

 

[Walks]

No, after 60+years I know what I'm doing. Lyman M-Dies are simply the best Expanders made for Lead Bullets. RCBS work great, Lyman are better.

 

[Walks]

Gas Checked Cast Bullets seat just like a Jacketed bullet. It just seems a little more slippery going in, and it's a lot harder.

 

[RBHarter]

Bought a Partner kit to get started . I've had 3-4 RockChuckers originals and 2's . About 4 yr ago I picked up Big Max and just in time to get in on Illinoiscoyotehunter's run of universal shell holder replacements , perfect since I didn't have that and the spring jaw universal had just enough wear to drop everything smaller than .473 rims . Also it's too small for the then new to me 45-70 . Aside from that RCBS has been tops in service . I have a broken 308 Lee decapping rod but scored a RCBS set and had a custom pin I turned so it's a fine neck die for 30-30 . CH would sell me a new decapping rod . Never had need to call on Lyman and I have no idea if Hornady would back or if PTG would cover the old Pacific Durachromes . I have a dual branded Pac/Hornady press too .

I've not had any issues with seating bullets in pistols and I have a 20mm bullet to flair the rifle cases .

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Gas Checked Cast Bullets seat just like a Jacketed bullet. It just seems a little more slippery going in, and it's a lot harder.

ALL cases will benefit from M-Dies. Its NOT just for cast.
EVERYTHING with an accurate load is consistency, 80% of an accurate load is neck tension.
CW

 

[CZ93X62]

I have two RCBS Cowboy Die Sets on the reloading garret shelf. I will check and confirm their spud form in a moment........

OK, the verdict. The RCBS Cowboy die sets I have (38 S&W and 38/55 M&B) have M-Die-form expander spuds, though their dimensions are more subtle than those of the Lyman-form dual-diameters. On the Lymans, the "step" is about .0035"-.004" larger than the main diameter; on the RCBS spud steps are about .002" larger at the "step".

The CB die sets both have two expander spuds. In the 38 S&W set, the inscribed diameters are .358" and .361". Actual mic'ed main spud diameters are .355" and .358". In the 38/55 set, marked diameters are .376" and .379"; actual main spud diameters are .373" and .376".

Until I looked closely at the RCBS/CB spud profiles, I was unaware that they have an M-die form at all. It is very subtle. I learned a bit of something this morning.

 

[Walks]

Now I just think I might buy an RCBS Cowboy Die Set in .38S&W.
I've been using a Lee set. My Buddy bought it so I could load .38S&W for US. I have a clean & tight H&R breaktop for Cowboy SideMatches. But factory ammo was all I needed. My Friend has 2 "New" S&W 5" Victory models from WWII. Once He found out I had accumulated 300+ cases over the years, He decided I should start loading for US.

I had a lot of that from My Cowboy Shooting Buddy's from the days back when I was still shooting Cowboy.

Seems they wanted me to Load everything for them that we used in SideMatches.
Our Club even had a Second Match every month in which we only shot SideMatches. Made a lot of work for me.

But I like shooting My Buddy's "Victory" Model. Going to have to get a mold that will drop .361. It's a pitt to double PC to bring the #358495 up to .361dia.

 

[Ian]

EVERYTHING with an accurate load is consistency, 80% of an accurate load is neck tension.

That's why you don't want to get too crazy with that second, .004"-oversize step on the Lyman and NOE M-dies. If you drive that second step down into the neck more than the absolute minimum to create a bell, you have positively ruined the neck tension in that area. The stepped expanding spud design is a reloader's convenience, not an accuracy boon. I think a lot of people make a stepped neck so they can slip their bullet down in there and it be held straight while the bullet is seated, but all that does is effectively obliterate neck tension where it is needed most. If you are resizing with conventional dies and just using the larger M-die step for "belling", it might not be enough....

I get it that those who "know what they're doing" don't over-do that second step, but still, the transition between the steps is abrupt. The RCBS spuds have a much more gentle taper and ease the bullet base into the neck without having to jam it over an abrupt step.

Apparently the RCBS Cowboy dies have a much more sane transition between the two diameters. Still, nothing wrong with a bellmouth unless you're using a .354" spud to load .3585" plain-based cast bullets, and that's what my .357 and .38 SPL spuds measure.

 

[Walks]

Was taught to open the case mouth the absolute minimum. Long before progressive presses. That's why so many folks have cracked case mouths, in the ammo they bring up to the Loading table over expanding the case mouth. As said before, to hold the bullet upright in the case, lazy. Not only do they not do case inspection before loading, they don't inspect the ammo after it's loaded.
It seems most Cowboy Shooters are not actually "Really" Reloaders. They set their press up for one caliber and that's it.

Know of one guy who actually thought the press came set up to load .38Spl from dillon. First round blew a Spaghetti SA to pieces.

Hard to believe a 50yr old man could be that dumb.

But that's why you see Cowboy Shooters load 5 and give the cylinder a hard spin, just to make sure all the primers are seated deep enough. They save the loaded rounds with cracked case mouths for their Revolvers, so they don't jam up in their rifles. If they pay enough attention.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

That's why you don't want to get too crazy with that second, .004"-oversize step on the Lyman and NOE M-dies. If you drive that second step down into the neck more than the absolute minimum to create a bell, you have positively ruined the neck tension in that area. The stepped expanding spud design is a reloader's convenience, not an accuracy boon. I think a lot of people make a stepped neck so they can slip their bullet down in there and it be held straight while the bullet is seated, but all that does is effectively obliterate neck tension where it is needed most. If you are resizing with conventional dies and just using the larger M-die step for "belling", it might not be enough....

I get it that those who "know what they're doing" don't over-do that second step, but still, the transition between the steps is abrupt. The RCBS spuds have a much more gentle taper and ease the bullet base into the neck without having to jam it over an abrupt step.

Apparently the RCBS Cowboy dies have a much more sane transition between the two diameters. Still, nothing wrong with a bellmouth unless you're using a .354" spud to load .3585" plain-based cast bullets, and that's what my .357 and .38 SPL spuds measure.

But Ian that would be improper use! How can you condem a product for improper use?

 

[Ian]

Because Lyman doesn't make the correct sizes for the correct neck tension for HV .30-caliber (and several others), and as I said, the angle of the transition between diameters is too abrupt to ease transition of the bullet into the neck so your bullet bases have to bump over that step. You're stuck with two sizes for .30 and that's it. The abrupt transition can be fixed with a lathe or drill press and file, but you can also turn around and buy a spud of the correct size and belling taper from....RCBS. If you don't get that neck tension just right, and consistent, you'll be just like 99.5% of cast bullet shooters who think 1900 fps is the accurate limit with cast bullets in their favorite .308. Lyman tooling is designed for something other than what I need or do, so I buy from those who offer what I need or make it myself. If their product works for you and plain-based revolver bullets, fantastic. RCBS's sttandard pistol die expanders are too small for cast bullets as well, so I'm not saying they're perfect either. At least RCBS offers die sets made for cast bullets that actually have the right sized parts in them.

If you happen to find an M-die that's made the correct size for what you need (their .44 caliber is almost correct for tight .44 Magnums using .430" bullets), then you're good to go. Otherwise, have fun working with tools that make things wrong. IIRC, reading Lyman's own website long ago, they recommend their M-dies for loading jacketed as well. Don't get me started on how much resizing dies over-size the brass in the first place.

 

[fiver]

what;sawrong with 8 or 10 thousands neck tension? your gonna drag it over a spud made for .002 neck tension before spring back.
back and forth back and forth.. what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Ian]

I certainly don't think enough people stop and ask themselves that question.

 

[Tomme boy]

Because Lyman doesn't make the correct sizes for the correct neck tension for HV .30-caliber (and several others), and as I said, the angle of the transition between diameters is too abrupt to ease transition of the bullet into the neck so your bullet bases have to bump over that step. You're stuck with two sizes for .30 and that's it. The abrupt transition can be fixed with a lathe or drill press and file, but you can also turn around and buy a spud of the correct size and belling taper from....RCBS. If you don't get that neck tension just right, and consistent, you'll be just like 99.5% of cast bullet shooters who think 1900 fps is the accurate limit with cast bullets in their favorite .308. Lyman tooling is designed for something other than what I need or do, so I buy from those who offer what I need or make it myself. If their product works for you and plain-based revolver bullets, fantastic. RCBS's standard pistol die expanders are too small for cast bullets as well, so I'm not saying they're perfect either. At least RCBS offers die sets made for cast bullets that actually have the right sized parts in them.

If you happen to find an M-die that's made the correct size for what you need (their .44 caliber is almost correct for tight .44 Magnums using .430" bullets), then you're good to go. Otherwise, have fun working with tools that make things wrong. IIRC, reading Lyman's own website long ago, they recommend their M-dies for loading jacketed as well. Don't get me started on how much resizing dies over-size the brass in the first place.

And this is why a mold I sent to someone on another forum could not get any accuracy out of his rifle. I am sure he uses M-dies. I am running this same bullet at 2200 fps in my Mosin and he lost all accuracy at 1900. I use the RCBS neck expanders after Ian told me about them when I first started loading for 30 cal rifles.

I have 2 of the rcbs expanders and 2 more a friend made me in the other sizes I needed.

2200 fps is not that fast, but for a 215gr bullet it is moving along nicely.

 

[Intheshop]

"One" problem with not only RCBS spud design but also the whole "damned" OP issue is;

Small,material saving(from a bean counter,industry standpoint) diameter stems. The Lyman M style uses a much larger diameter than RCBS on their spuds. Like I asked one of my machinist mentors 20 years ago about which size rotary table for mill.... 8?,12?,or 15? He stopped me in my tracks and had me think about diameter for a moment from an accuracy standpoint. Took a cpl seconds/minutes and the lightbulb came on. "15 it is then",haha.