Dang it....mould shopping

[fiver]

you don't need to start another thread to find out what happens to a deer when you hit it at high velocity with a cast flat point.
I can answer that one with 100% absurdity.[real word not a fiverism]

even a side on clean no rib hit will make a mess of blood shot meat, nick a rib and,, and? well,,, even an experienced hunter is gonna shudder a little when the skin comes off.
the meplat size needs to go down proportionately to the speed going up and the alloy make up needs to follow in the opposite direction.
2500 is getting to [probably some 100+fps past really] the point of no return on anything mattering as far as a fix.
take your ground hog results, expand the damage to the bullet and imagine the wider surface area a deer presents.
that's probably the best case scenario, put it in the shoulder or meaty potion of the neck and you'll be eating just the back straps [most of them anyway] and hams.

 

[Intheshop]

I've shot a half dz deer with 223 varmint class JB's and seen,no exit..... stumble and fall,DRT

 

[Intheshop]

Behind the shoulder.... high,heart....center dbl lung

 

[Intheshop]

Deer ain't bullet proof.......

 

[Intheshop]

Am considering the RCBS 165G sil 30 cal as my next mould..... that and a Zeiss 3-10 and I'm on a killing mission.

 

[Intheshop]

To wit..... see y'all, am going to find enlightenment in the killing fields....

Will blast another hunting,run whatcha brung group with the CDL 150's and report back later.

Taking the 7-08.

 

[fiver]

they aren't bullet proof for sure I have shot them with 32-20 type stuff no problems.
think of this as more like 30 yards with a weatherby cartridge and a cup and core bullet.
or like a 44 mag on a chipmunk. [opposite]
a little more velocity is fine but the bullet itself can't take the stress on impact and your using enough mass for it to matter now.

 

[Ian]

Embarrassing story here. Hunted with CBs to good effect in '06 for years and years, but I loved my old Marlin 30-30 (first centerfire rifle) and the "wisdom" was Ranch Dog 165s, ACWW+2% tin, and 1850 fps MV. Hokay. So I work up a tack driver load and a few years later get to use it on a large-ish 6-point whitetail. He turned left and was stepping behind a big live oak trunk just as I was putting the squeeze on and I sent the bullet raking in his seventh rib. 1" more to the left and it would have been liver and lungs like I wanted, two inches to the right and it would have barked the tree, but I shanked it somewhere in between or he turned away from the line of the bullet a little faster than I anticipated. I didn't see him fall or where he went so I arced around downwind and started stalking through the brush. Directly I see him standing about 20' away from where I shot him, just looking at me curiously. He turned and started trotting off when I shouldered the rifle again and he gave me the same, mostly quartering shot again, but I didn't lead him enough this time as he was trotting and the bullet went 2" too far to the inside...which was right through the right ham. He dropped like a sack of potatoes and piled up in the brush. Turns out the first bullet hit #7 rib and removed a neat chunk from it, and #6, and #5, and so on and left a pencil-sized exit hole in the hide of the neck, not even a drop of blood from either hole and not even a puncture of the chest sac. The second bullet blew the femur to smithereens, ruined the entire ham, missed all the guts, cut a hole through the liver and left lung, ending up breaking one rib on the left side and fell out when I separated the shoulder from the carcass. About 1/3 of the bullet was left, no expansion, just abrasion/fragmentation. Good part is I got the deer and both shoulders were perfect. Bad news is lost one whole ham, and had to shoot twice. My faith in low-velocity .30-caliber WFN bullets was severely shaken after that. Yes, they were poor shots (not by much, but it doesn't take much when the margin is thin due to poor angle and moving/running deer), but the tissue damage was unimpressive. Sure, the bullets cut through bones like a laser beam and didn't deflect a bit, but the liver should have been jelly and the exploding ribs should have blown up the whole boiler room. After that episode I pushed that load right on up to 2,165 fps and it does MUCH better.

Moral of the story is if you don't have a soft enough alloy you won't get expansion and your wound cavity will be poor. If you don't have enough velocity or caliber to make a FP work, your shot placement better be spot-on. If you don't have a FP, or big caliber, you'd better have a lot of velocity and soft point/cup point.

I'm currently enjoying the powder-coated .30-caliber HPs at full jax velocity. The PC allows the use of a soft, balanced alloy, like WW+3% tin, and to push it very fast with accuracy. The results in test media have been very promising and even at 300 yards/1800 fps impact velocity the bullet will work.

 

[fiver]

I don't even wanna talk about the RCBS 30-150 at full on just about too much pressure speeds in the 30-30 from ww alloy.
it was just a grouse... but 3"s below the head was too low.
if I do that with the 7-Ackley or 25-06 I can get the breast meat and legs.

 

[Intheshop]

Nice hunting story Ian.....

When,using varmint bullets on deer you gotta be at 90* to the rib cage. As the cage angles,the spacing gets a LOT closer. No,not recommending folks use frangible (sp) bullets for waxing deer..... and definitely not on bruiser bucks. But when you have literally herds,with PLENTY of time and willingness to wait for perfect broadside shots on smaller does..... a 55g 223,quality varmint JB will explode their lungs. Just sayin.

 

[Intheshop]

Dang,here I was thinking H4198 was gonna give it up with the 150.....

Just sent 5 into a pretty decent, albeit "strung vertically" group..... @34g with a Lyman 4th max of 35.5.

Was thinking, as soon as this powder goes "off".... take that same weight of powder charge and apply it as a starting point for 4895....

And every increase in powder just keeps going twds 11:00 WRT the Luepold "clicks". Which.... OK, I keep blaming the scope but,@32g it was 12:00,1 inch or so high....

Bumped to 34g.... and it's back up @11.... 2" out. Curious'er and curious'er? And will say,my shooting is easily into 90% or better. Very relaxed,low heart rate,got nothing better to do.

34.5? And keep the head down shooting.

 

[fiver]

34.5 is getting into 4064 territory.
36 and 39.5 are two of my favorites in the 308.

 

[Intheshop]

No signs of anything misbehaving on the case @34 pressure wise. Will try 34.5 because I want to see if the group shape changes....but that's it. I want to use something slower. 4064 and Varget are very similar in their burn rates I think? Have heard guys using 4064 back a few years when we were in the powder drought.....when they couldn't find Varget.

Varget....so I've also seen espoused,has some minor issues with consistency from lot to lot? However,that's "probably" running near max loads. I use it @37g behind a 130 Lee in 7-08..... pretty stout load for cast but not anything near hot for JB's.

 

[fiver]

I hear 'stuff' about Varget too, mostly from guys that look at things and test things pretty thoroughly.
the guys that just shoot and take what they get say nothing bad about it.
I don't pay too much attention, since I use I-4064 and have been since before varget come along,
I know what to expect from it.

 

[Intheshop]

Well,H4198 finally,@34.5g gave it up on accuracy. 34g in this rig is it.

Federal primers started to flatten and accuracy went from hovering round 1-1 1/2" @34 to,ehh....don't need to talk about it.

So,done with that powder.... going with Varget next. Going to start at a point I feel is back 10k on pressure.... will run it up to low JB book velocity.

The 34.5 H4198 load wasn't "beating" on the rifle OR the shoulder. Which is a testament to the 150g bullet. Got tons of handloading experience with '06,150 JB's..... albeit with 4350. So know a thing or 12 about recoil in an '06.

In looking back... probably somewhere in the 32-34g (4198) range was a sweet spot. And can find it should slower powders not play out. Also,new found respect or,reconfirmed how much torque is being dished out with CB's. Those extra cpl .001's in size,along with gobs of grip...... evidenced here by the fact that,there ain't no leading,just massive amts of "traction"... really requires a full,almost white knuckle hold. It's interesting because it's not so much rearward as it is twisting. Which is why the groups,even though were decent... kept wanging left( right twist brrl = left twist/torque).

 

[Intheshop]

Gonna clean the barrel for the powder swap. Will advise later on anything of note. Don't think a deep clean is necessary.... throw some solvent, brush a little and dry mop it hard.

 

[fiver]

if it were me I'd just push a dry glob of towel through it to see what's in there, then shoot 4-5 tossers down the barrel to re-align everything, cool it all down and put a couple on paper.

 

[Intheshop]

It wasn't a complete waste of time because at least it's following internet protocol by cleaning before changing powders buuuut....

It was spotless.

Before shelving the 4198,looked around to see what needed it. Bam,need some 223's. So get to loading a box of those...... and in a moment of,horseshoe up the arse.... found that a #12 "factory" rotor* for a Lyman Accumeasure is EXACTLY 18.8g of the powder. See,that's all the clean living I do,yup.....that's it.

Got 3 Accumeasures,two live on custom Lee powder through dies on a Lyman turret press,set up for 38sp and 45acp. The 3rd lives on the carousel with a gang of Uniflows. Was thinking when cranking out the 223 load that..... dang,I wonder if this grain load fits in the parameters of the baby Lymans? Looked on the chart and saw it said #14 but with the IMR.....tried it,ehhh,no go. Grabbed a #12 and the thing split the mark on the scale.

*made quite a few custom rotors,much easier than the RCBS baby hopper.... just less machining. They're both effectively the same.

 

[Spindrift]

I must admit, I have no particular protocol when changing powders- I just start shooting. I have never noticed any ill effects, but that might be because my standards are low
Seems like things are coming along nicely, good work. Will be interesting to hear what you get with the slower powders.

 

[Ian]

Me neither, I usually do like Fiver and push a clean, dry patch through first just to look for anything out of the ordinary, then switch powder (or whatever is being changed) and get back to testing.