Design and alloy, part II

Ian

Notorious member
You really hit the nail on the head there about mongrel alloys. But, if we home-gamers can at least ball-park it with our examples, it gives people some kind of idea what to try. We've been discussing and cussing HV cast bullet shooting on these boards for more than a decade and if one thing has proven true, it's that people cannot or will not follow directions, and even if they manage to get close, their particular "system" is always and in many ways going to be at least slightly unique....often unique enough to be out of the tolerance range of any specific recommendation from another experienced person.

All that is WHY having a CONCEPT of what one is trying to accomplish and various ways to get there, rather than a ROTE RECIPE, is going to be more helpful to people. You just aren't going to get very far with this unless you are able to think and get an understanding of the processes involved in the gun, and how to match materials/components to the job at hand. A well-reasoned, slightly generalized guide will save many, many years of trial and error.

We can break this down to a molecular level for the sake of discussion, but just like bullet lube, bullet alloy is really just a material with a set of qualities, with the specifics of those qualities being of more intellectual value than practical value. Still, to fully understand, we need to know.

Bullet metal has how many characteristics? Ductility, malleability, and CoF, right? What else? Ductility is difficult to measure at home, and is more conceptually relevant than practically relevant when considering dynamic fit. Malleability can be measured with the Brinell test. CoF is going to be difficult, but is very important to maintaining obturation at HV when land stress becomes a huge factor.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Mongrel, yeah that's as good a title as any. Most casters are using whatever they can get their hands on and are damn glad to get it. Few with the probable exception of front stuffer's and black powder match shooters are using anything close to virgin metal. Many casters have never heard of BHN and think "hard cast" is heaven sent.
 

pokute

Active Member
You really hit the nail on the head there about mongrel alloys. But, if we home-gamers can at least ball-park it with our examples, it gives people some kind of idea what to try. We've been discussing and cussing HV cast bullet shooting on these boards for more than a decade and if one thing has proven true, it's that people cannot or will not follow directions, and even if they manage to get close, their particular "system" is always and in many ways going to be at least slightly unique....often unique enough to be out of the tolerance range of any specific recommendation from another experienced person.

All that is WHY having a CONCEPT of what one is trying to accomplish and various ways to get there, rather than a ROTE RECIPE, is going to be more helpful to people. You just aren't going to get very far with this unless you are able to think and get an understanding of the processes involved in the gun, and how to match materials/components to the job at hand. A well-reasoned, slightly generalized guide will save many, many years of trial and error.

We can break this down to a molecular level for the sake of discussion, but just like bullet lube, bullet alloy is really just a material with a set of qualities, with the specifics of those qualities being of more intellectual value than practical value. Still, to fully understand, we need to know.

Bullet metal has how many characteristics? Ductility, malleability, and CoF, right? What else? Ductility is difficult to measure at home, and is more conceptually relevant than practically relevant when considering dynamic fit. Malleability can be measured with the Brinell test. CoF is going to be difficult, but is very important to maintaining obturation at HV when land stress becomes a huge factor.

Pushing a bullet into a grooved bore and recording the changing force required to move it along might yield interesting data when compared with bullet performance. The relatively slow test would probably still inform the variations that the bullet maker has control over. Here's a schematic showing a simple test frame that might be used. It's basically a gear motor driving two acme screws with a platen riding on them. The "load cell" is the "Z" shaped thing at the left end. It might suffice to use a sizing die instead of going all-out with rifling.
 

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Ian

Notorious member
How about gym weights or heavy spring scale on a press handle, and push-through sizing dies? KISS principle.
 

pokute

Active Member
You'd want to record the load over time, with the feed rate constant. Yes, I think the push through sizing dies may be sufficient. The equipment shown is about as simple as I've ever seen for similar kinds of tests. I can build the load cell and excitation circuit, and interface it to a computer... After I retire in October :oops:
 

Kevin Stenberg

Well-Known Member
I digress back to page 1. I have 4 - 20 gallon plastic drums that I use as bullet recovery stations. One at 25 / 50 / 100 /150 yards. They are layd horizontally on raised wooden stands. Each is filled with sand. An I have yet to have a bullet travel through a drum and exit the opposite end. But then the only large caliber I load for is an 06.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
iirc you can test BHN with a weight system on the handle something like 40 lbs for a period of 60 seconds and measure the dent.
so the weights thing would give you an idea but you'd have to have a way to measure the force.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I got the bright idea to go digging through my 55-gallon steel crumb rubber mulch trap over at the pistol pit a little while ago, since I've never actually emptied it. It has me doubting that the mulch is going to be a very good media for trapping rifle bullets intact, but I'll just have to try and see.

I have a stack of 2x12x8' in the garage that are in the way, I'll try to build a trap soon and see how viable it is for HV rifles using WD 50/50 alloy. I hate to waste the lumber but there's only one way to find out. I can always replace the first part with sawdust if it tears up the bullets too much.

Also, I found this: http://www.safariland.com/products/...html&start=1#sm.00001l1qy2bo8beopsrkw9r5n7txz The stuffing is available by itself for $420 for a rifle trap and $230 for pistol trap refills.