Die Holder

[Gary]

OK, not much of a project but I needed a Die Holder to use on the Lathe from time to time. Very easy to make a Die Holder for round Dies, but not so easy for Hex Dies. Here's what I came up with (certain I'm not the first to think of this) : I went to a local Pawn Shop and found a single socket 1 1/16" for .75 cents. Got back to the shop and placed the socket in the 3 Jaw and cut it in half. Next I found a 2.25" John Deere Wrist Pin, cut it to ~3" long and started sizing. VERY hard steel! Center drilled to 1/2" and then used a boring bar to size the opening to the OD of the socket. That's as far as I got today. Tomorrow I will size a 8" rod for the 1/2" center hole and drill/tap a couple of holes to tighten the Die in the Holder.

 

[smokeywolf]

Very much admire folks who make something useful out of parts and scrap they have just sittin' around in the shop.

 

[Brad]

Using a pawn shop socket makes so much sense.
Well done Gary. Might need to copy this.

 

[Pistolero]

Boy, I agree with Brad entirely. I have been needing this, have not yet gotten to the point
of sketching and getting material together. But, the socket trick is pure genius. I had thought
about this a bit, and didn't want to use the dividing head to cut the hex on the mill, was thinking
about two or three setscrews in a round hole to engage a few flats.

This is MUCH better, although I have a 1/2-27 die that is pretty darned big. Will have to measure
it. Larger sockets will be harder to come by, I think, at least for cheap.

I have a bunch of dies which are around 1", will have to measure and get a cheap socket.

Great idea, great job!

Bill

 

[Brad]

I have been trying to figure out how to make a holder for hex dies. No rotary table was going to make it a bit harder but not any longer.

 

[fiver]

1-1/16 just happens to be the size of the oil drain plug on the international Travelall's and most of their trucks built before 1970.

 

[smokeywolf]

If I had to do this without a dividing head or rotary table and didn't have or want to use a socket, I would:

1. Cut a piece of 2" dia. aluminum round to 6" long. (5" might do)
2. Face both ends and chuck transfer punch in tailstock chuck and put small dimple to locate center in end (dimple is for compass/scribe).
3. Dykem and scribe layout lines for the hex on one end.
4. Lay the workpiece down in the mill vise and mill a 3/4" wide flat.
5. Place workpiece in precision vise with flat against stationary jaw.
6. Place precision vise in mill vise with 30-60-90 (use the 30angle) or sine bar at 30 under it.
7. Mill remaining 5 flats.
8. Put workpiece in 3 or 6 jaw on lathe and drill center hole.
9. Clamp precision vise on its side in mill vise (bottom of precision vise against stationary jaw of mill vise) against mill stop with die holder in precision vise and end against mill vise bed. (make sure you can open and close moving jaw of precision vise while clamped in mill vise)This allows removal and reclamping of part without losing location.
10. Use your trig or cheat and use P-R (Polar to Rectangular) on your calculator and locate your 6 corners by moving your mill table on its X and Y axis.
11. With 5/32 drill, drill all six corners of hex (depth determined by thickness of die plus a little).
12. With appropriate sized end mills (you can figure this out), mill the flats of your internal hex.
13. Drill and tap your set screw holes.

If I figured the size of your outside flats correctly, you should end up with a slight radii at all six corners.
If you use a larger or smaller diameter piece of stock you'll have to recalculate the width of the flats.

Double check my figures. I could have made a stupid mistake.

EDIT: This of course also assumes that you have a mill.

 

[Ian]

If I had to do it without a socket OR mill I'd counter-bore the end of a round rod to a few thousandths larger than the circle diameter of the die and use a fast cut to leave a rough finish, wrap one layer of painter's tape around the die, paint it with mould release or JPW, and epoxy the die into the counterbore with Devcon Liquid Steel. Extract die from cured epoxy form with a bolt and file a slight relief bevel on the edge of the six flats, then d/t for set screws on three flats.

 

[Brad]

I am thinking of what I have on hand. Cut a chunk of 2” round, face one side. Turn the other side down to 3/4” to fit a 5C collet. Use my hex 5C collet block to hold the faced edge perpindicular to mill spindle. Center under the spindle. Use DRO to locate a 6 hole bolt circle. Drill a 3/16” hole at each corner. Use an endmill to mill between 2 holes on X axis. Rotate collet block in mill vise and repeat the milling between next 2 holes. Actually could mill between 2 sets of holes as the hex will have 2 sides parallel to x axis. Rotate and repeat a third time and clean up the rest of the hex.

Sound workable Smokey?

Amazing how many ways there are to do the same thing. We each approach the problem based on what we have on hand and out comfort zone.

 

[smokeywolf]

Brad, how long is the "chunk of 2" round? You may have trouble milling the end if it's sticking up too high from the collet block. Chatter will be untenable.

 

[Brad]

Good point. Collet block will add to the height out of the vise. It would need to be at least a couple inches long.

Might be as easy to use the collet block to hold the piece and make it hex. That would let you hold it directly in the vise for a more rigid setup.

 

[Brad]

Or just buy a foot of 2” hex to start with.

 

[Pistolero]

I think you could also do it with six holes drilled just slightly radially inboard of
the cornes of your hex die. For example, use a 1" hex, then drill a ~1/4" hole about
1/16 closer than the actual corner location. Then bore out JUST enough for the
die to slid in, basically a ~1.050" hole. The corners will hang up in the six corner holes
and hole in from rotation, and put a setscrew on one flat to keep it from falling out.

I think if you lay the die down on a piece of paper and trace it, then lay a circle templat
over the traced hex and figure out what looks good you will have it. Drill six holes in the
mill, then turn the 1.050" (ish) cavity on the lathe, and done. The dketch will show how
to space the corner holes, and what size will look good, and how large a center hole
you will need. Circle templates and a few minutes and you should have it. A solid
modeler would, of course do it, too.

Actual layout, not just my "mind's eye" will show whether 5/16 holes would be better,
etc. to hold the corners, and how far inboard of the actual hex corner locations to center
the drill.

Bill

 

[fiver]

I think I see what your saying.
I would imagine just the flats need to be made to exact size and the corners could be rounded or larger so a slight miss wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[KeithB]

I once used a six point socket to make a hex opening inside a crank handle I was making for a machine vise. I drilled/bored a hole in the crank handle hub that was big enough to just clear the socket OD and put a weld chamfer on the ID. Turned the chrome off the back end of the socket and some of the OD and put a weld chamfer on it. (IIRC I used a grinder to knock the chrome off the corner and then cut under it with a carbide tool.)

A little preheat with a torch and a good ring of MIG weld in the chamfered area and the job was done. Probably lost some of the hardness in the socket but it is a six pointer (harder to round off the corners) and is tightened by hand (no breaker bars, ratchets, etc.) and has the full length of engagement on the end of the screw (not just the height of a nut or screw head). Don't think it will ever wear out.

That was done when I had a lathe and welder but no rotary table. I thought about extending a hub enough to cut two or three slots around the periphery and welding the socket in from the sides instead of the end but dimensionally for that project it wasn't a practical option.

I have read that many good quality sockets are made from 41XX or 43XX steel, both are which are weldable with the proper preheat and electrode/wire selection.

On my die retention nut drivers I drill the six corner holes before cutting the hex opening, it makes it into a flank-drive type of configuration. I think that would work well for driving a threading die. One nice thing about hex dies is you are driving on the die OD in multiple places, instead driving on the tip of a setscrew under shear.

 

[Ian]

Most of my threading dies are 12-point. Socket is the only way to roll with those.

 

[KeithB]

I believe you, I just don't think I've ever seen a 12 pt threading die. I have several complete sets of round dies and a small number of randomly collected hex dies I use for rethreading/cleaning up existing threads but all are 6 pt. Could you name a brand or post a picture of a 12 point die?

 

[Ian]

 

[Brad]

Interesting. Those are really 12 point.

 

[KeithB]

Nice set, first time I’ve ever seen a 12 pt threading die. Snap on is made in Illinois about 40 miles from here. Good tools but pricey imho.