Downloading H4831

[Joshua]

I was gifted 25-30# of H4831.
I was wondering if it could be downloaded safely to shoot cast in 7.62X54-30-06 size cases?
I know 4895 can be downloaded and have done that...dale

It sounds like you should buy a 30-30. You would never need to buy powder again for that gun.

Josh

 

[Ian]

30-30 with cast bullets is a great way to dispose of 4831. It's filthy but you can put enough in there that it won't SEE and I don't think it's possible to over-pressure the load.

 

[fiver]

I can't think of any way either.
if you can use it in something else that has a smaller case size [300 savage, 30-30, or X39 size] so your over filling it your gonna be in good shape.

 

[dale2242]

Shade Tree Reloading? Hmmmmm!

 

[CZ93X62]

Not speaking directly to the 4831 question, but I use a lot of WC-860 in slow-for-application/full-case loadings. I use Federal #215 LRM primers to get whatever ignition advantage I can with these heavily-deterrent-coated fuels. I get fewer kernel zombies and a bit higher velocity using the #215s over CCI or Winchester LR primers. In 30/30, the full-case loads of WC-860 give about 1650 FPS to Lyman #311041. I think a 190-200 grain bullet along the lines of the old 303 Savage loads might work better, and leave a few less zombies in the bore after each shot.

 

[L Ross]

30-30 with cast bullets is a great way to dispose of 4831. It's filthy but you can put enough in there that it won't SEE and I don't think it's possible to over-pressure the load.

Ian, I want to use my 1886 in .33 w.c.f. for deer in about a month. If I go wandering down the rabbit hole of old 4831 and this .33, does the increased expansion ratio of the larger caliber, (over 30-30), make up for the increased case capacity?
I'm just kicking this around in my head right now. I haven't even checked to see how much 4831 it will take to fill the case to the base of the Accurate 200 grain Lyman clone.

 

[Joshua]

30-30, 45 grains of water
33 w.c.f, 63 grains of water
30-06, 69 grains of water
Source: http://kwk.us/cases.html

The 33 w.c.f. seems to have a pretty big case volume!

Josh

 

[Ian]

Ian, I want to use my 1886 in .33 w.c.f. for deer in about a month. If I go wandering down the rabbit hole of old 4831 and this .33, does the increased expansion ratio of the larger caliber, (over 30-30), make up for the increased case capacity?
I'm just kicking this around in my head right now. I haven't even checked to see how much 4831 it will take to fill the case to the base of the Accurate 200 grain Lyman clone.

What's t he pressure limit of the .33? At first blush this doesn't look like a good idea at all.

4831 only works in the 30-30 because the case volume is so small. It will burn at reduced pressure in the 30-30 because the load density is 100%. If you filled a .33 case with 4831 and shook out enough to seat the bullet, what would your pressures be? 60,000 PSI? If you downloaded it, would you get S.E.E.? What if you added filler, would that fix it to be safe?

I'm gonna say no way. How about 4198, 3031, or Reloder 7?

 

[RBHarter]

If it's low it might be walking the line in a full case .

I looked at 06' data but didn't look at pressures for 4831 with 220s . In the 06' you run out of case about 50-52kpsi . 4350 the next DuPont step down is about 1 gr off of out of case in 30-30 for 48 k . Unless the 33 has an odd dia to bore , short/fat thing going on , a scoop it full loose to the bottom of the neck weigh that , subtract 10% and bullet base below the neck , and start there should be pretty safe in the context of too slow to get hurt .

 

[fiver]

I don't know about a see event, but in the 308 it looked like I was dumping the powder down a wet barrel until I got the pressure up.
I also didn't have much in the way of accuracy either until I crossed the cleaner burning threshold.

I'd probably rob some 3031 data from the 348 win. with an eye towards what my rifle is made to take.
3031 has a good 10 grain spread to work with, and should do well with a 50gr. spread in bullet weight.
I don't think you can ask for more than that.

 

[Charles Graff]

If the 86 Winchester is marked "Nickle Steel" on the barrel, it is OK to use smokeless powder. If not so marked sooner or later the chamber will bulge and perhaps even rupture with smokeless powder. Yes, I know your father fired high base magnum shotshell in his grandfathers old damascus barrel shotgun for years with no problem. It is like driving down the highway at 100 mph with bad brakes. Everything is OK until it isn't.

 

[L Ross]

In my research I ran across a guy shooting 53 grains of 4831 for 2,033 fps. He said he got his data from an article in Hand Loader Magazine.

I mounted a Marble's tang sight this morning and as I still had 45 rounds of hand loads with 200 grain Herter's flat point over 39.0 gr. of 4895 I shot a few of those. Perfectly satisfied with basically 2" group at 50 yards once I stopped twisting on the windage and elevation. In my woods a long shot is 60 yards.

So the 86 will be my iron sight gun and a 1959 Model 70 .270 will be the scoped gun, still zeroed from two years ago. I also double checked my wife's tang safety Model 77 International in .250-3000. I think it was three years ago I used her little carbine to shoot our annual venison. I don't know if she will hunt anymore, probably not, but if she expresses a sudden interest her rifle is ready.

 

[L Ross]

If the 86 Winchester is marked "Nickle Steel" on the barrel, it is OK to use smokeless powder. If not so marked sooner or later the chamber will bulge and perhaps even rupture with smokeless powder. Yes, I know your father fired high base magnum shotshell in his grandfathers old damascus barrel shotgun for years with no problem. It is like driving down the highway at 100 mph with bad brakes. Everything is OK until it isn't.

Were there any .33's not designed for smokeless? I thought they came out in 1902. Mine is a 1906 round barrel full magazine rifle with a shotgun butt and it is marked nickel steel on the barrel.

 

[dale2242]

I did a simple test with H4831 behind cast bullets yesterday.
The point of the test was to see if the H4831 would burn cleanly with cast with reduced loads.
I loaded some 7.62X54R with 316299 bullets at 207 gr and some 311329 at 175 gr.
The load filled the cases full enough that I didn`t fill I needed a filler.
I first tried 40 gr with the 316299 and got some unburned powder let in the barrel.
I then started increasing the load 1 gr. at a time.
When I got to 45 gr the powder was burning clean with the heavier bullet and very little unburned powder with the lighter one.
I loaded 5 each of the 2 bullets with 45 gr and will shoot them over the chronograph for speed and group.

 

[fiver]

45 is about where I got to in the 308 when it started cleaning up.
i'll be interested in your chronograph numbers.

 

[CZ93X62]

I've tried WC-860 for this sort of stunt-work, but never have with IMR/H-4831. That is mostly because the 4831s are such a PITA to measure in my RCBS powder tools. Do the "short cut" 4831s run better in a powder measure? I have yet to try them. The 4350s and the 4831s get "near-missed" through the measures and then trickled up to weight on my scale when I do use them.

 

[RBHarter]

For geewiz and stuff 9 kernels of H4831 weigh .1 gr .
Old stock from the WWII surplus 1972 repack can .

There's some useless information ........

 

[fiver]

better?
yeah some, but I wouldn't count on 50grs. being 50grs. more like 49 or 51 or thereabouts.
it's some better plus 2 than RL-19 is through a dump though.
if I didn't use so much of those 2 powders I'd probably not own a powered powder machine.

 

[Missionary]

4831 works real good through a scoop. 296 also. Once we find an accurate load we make a new scoop and mark it .
Never get rid of all you large bore brass if you decide to scoop some powders.

 

[dale2242]

I solved my powder dispensing issues by buying the Hornady Auto Charge.
Once I learned to adjust the feed speed, trickle speed and trickle start time with each type of powder all is good.