"Elvis" 61 grain in the AR 15 thread

[Mitty38]

Ok here is the Bullet I will be working with. Figure I may as well start a thread here following my journey, Keep it all in one place.
The gun is an AR15 M4 clone, with a carbine length gas system. 1 in 8 twist and a 223 wild chamber. With a 16 inch barrel.

I ordered the mold at .224 across the driving band instead of .225.
Did this to allow for powder coating, and also because my barrel slugs at .223 on the nose. Plus I got a little advice from @fiver .
Thinking the solid smooth side, and excess contact area, may cause an issue with pressure and I just feel a bit more comfortable starting out at jacketed bullet size. Figure I can add 3 thou in powder or beagle it later, but can't make it smaller. I do not want to end up sizing down a lot.
Have a lot of questions. Wanting to take this a step at a time so hope you guys can help me along.
Will be posting a few questions here in a day or so as soon as I sort out what I know, do not know, and how I want to word things.

 

[popper]

I use hard, slick sided in BO, 30/30 & 308W, works fine.

 

[L Ross]

I use hard, slick sided in BO, 30/30 & 308W, works fine.

I thought the consensus was grooves were important in powder coating as displacement vehicles?

 

[popper]

They have very small groove. 050x050.

 

[Mitty38]

I thought the consensus was grooves were important in powder coating as displacement vehicles?

May be , seems no one has had stellar results with this, including the designer.

You are kind of getting at one of my questions. This being a slick side with no groves and .31 inch of contact.
Most people who I have read- heard- watched using this and tryng to pass velocities of 1800 fps run into pressure issues and leading. Some right off the bat, then just eventually give up.
All of the guys and gals that have published results so far are using powders like IMR 4198, Accurate 2015, or H322. Seams the ones using H322 have been having better results with leading and cycling but still showing pressure signs with close to starting loads and not much room too find "the node".

One other thing is most of these guys are shooting 19 to 21 BHN right off the bat and running it without sizing after powder coating.

Here are my thoughts, correct me if I am wrong. By sizing the bullet to ..224 after coating.Going a little softer on the lead like 16- 18 bhn. Then going a little slower with a powder like H335 or 4064, I might find a place where the powder coat and bullet can move right.
I may just get it to go faster, which is not my main priority btw. My main goal is to at least get it to find a node at lower velocity, where the gun cycles , plus get on a plate at 50 yards every time. With no signs of pressure. If I find that I will probably stop there and call it a win.

Thing is if I go with H335, because of the pressure concerns, all that contact area. I would like to Start with a very reduced load and work my way up. How reduced can I go with H335 and not run into problems?
I would like to start so low I almost get squibs an go up a little at a time checking for pressure signs all the way.

 

[Ian]

I thought the consensus was grooves were important in powder coating as displacement vehicles?

That IS the consensus, however it doesn't mean that some people aren't having success with "slicks" in certain situations.

Stubborn, plastic bore fouling at high velocity and accuracy problems at low velocity together with bore leading are the usual complaints with slicks but it doesn't always happen. I personally think that keeping coated monoliths closer groove diameter than throat entrance diameter is a key point to managing lead and plastic bore fouling. Those who go about the coated cast bullet thing the same way they do conventional lubricated bullets by making them 2, 3, or even 4 thousandths larger than groove diameter nay not have very good results, especially with slicks.

Frank Barnes discovered the bore fouling issue inherent to monolithic slicks very quickly and his solution was the same as those of us using monolithic lead-alloy bullets: cut displacement grooves in the driving section to limit alloy movement to the bullet's surface, reduce radial pressure on the barrel, and prevent abrasion deposition in the bore. Friction-reducing, barrier-type coatings help a lot too.....like thermoset Polyester paint.

 

[Spindrift]

By sizing the bullet to ..224 after coating.Going a little softer on the lead like 16- 18 bhn. Then going a little slower with a powder like H335 or 4064, I might find a place where the powder coat and bullet can move right.

I think this reasoning is sound.
I have no experience with slicks myself, so I can’t contribute anything. But please keep us posted on your results,I’ve been considering the same mould myself.

 

[Mitty38]

That IS the consensus, however it doesn't mean that some people aren't having success with "slicks" in certain situations.

Stubborn, plastic bore fouling at high velocity and accuracy problems at low velocity together with bore leading are the usual complaints with slicks but it doesn't always happen. I personally think that keeping coated monoliths closer groove diameter than throat entrance diameter is a key point to managing lead and plastic bore fouling. Those who go about the coated cast bullet thing the same way they do conventional lubricated bullets by making them 2, 3, or even 4 thousandths larger than groove diameter nay not have very good results, especially with slicks.

Kinda down my line of thinking.
To put it in my words...... I believe the excess area can make up for the necessity for extremely snug fitment. Too much(too tight) a fit can be a bad thing when things do not move well, the same reason most jacketed and plated bullets are usually no more then a thou over bore diameter.
But I believe the "stiffness" and heavy contact area can be taken advantage of, if you get the size just right and find a mix of alloy that allows itself to flow just at the right rate.
Kinda find that happy place where it is scooting across the groves enough to grab a bit, and help it spin, self align.
Kinda like the nose on a bore rider.

Trying not to get my expectations up so high, concerning one goa,l or another, that I end up throwing in the towel. Like it appears that Elvis Ammo did. Just going to find out, and adapt to what it does, and see how best it can work for me.

 

[waco]

Mitty. I use the Lee 55gr powder coated and sized to .225”
WW alloy. This is a GC design but I left them off. I load them with 19gr H335 for a MV of 2025fps. This reliably cycles my AR and holds the bolt back on the last shot. The rifle is a bone stock S&W M&P 15 Sport. I just plink with this rifle. It has an older Bushnell Holo sight. I can pretty easily Break clay pigeons at 60-70 yards offhand.
Hope this helps you out a little.
Walter

 

[Mitty38]

Mitty. I use the Lee 55gr powder coated and sized to .225”
WW alloy. This is a GC design but I left them off. I load them with 19gr H335 for a MV of 2025fps. This reliably cycles my AR and holds the bolt back on the last shot. The rifle is a bone stock S&W M&P 15 Sport. I just plink with this rifle. It has an older Bushnell Holo sight. I can pretty easily Break clay pigeons at 60-70 yards offhand.
Hope this helps you out a little.
Walter

Thank you, Yes it does.
Lets me know H335 works ok for some one, with PC'd lead at velocities under what I was expecting to have to reach.
Was actually thinking that I might start out at 17.5 grain. Your info lets me know I just might be in the ball park.

Trying to find a good starting place. Kind of extrapolating info at the moment, to figure out a good place to start.

How are you prepossessing your bullets. Is your WW alloy quenched then Pc'd and quenched again. Or is it towel dropped and just powder coated?.

Have any Idea of its final hardness?

I am thinking with the solid side bullet one of the issues is that folks are making the lead way too hard. Then the PC is moving around at a much greater rate, then the lead. Kinda' tearing the PC away from the lead.
Thinking if I go a little softer the lead will move a bit easier preventing this.
But do not want to go too soft an have the bullet take a crap on the inside of the barrel either.

Would not it be a riot? If after all these people could not get it to work right with those faster powders. Going to a common,standard, almost generic, AR15 powder like H-335 might be the answer?

 

[Ian]

I think you got it, Emmett.

If all else fails about 2.5-3 grains of pistol powder makes a really nice .22 LR substitute for the AR.

 

[waco]

How are you prepossessing your bullets. Is your WW alloy quenched then Pc'd and quenched again. Or is it towel dropped and just powder coated?.

Have any Idea of its final hardness?

Air cooled from the mold.
Air cooled out of the oven.
No idea on BHN.

 

[Mitty38]

Air cooled from the mold.
Air cooled out of the oven.
No idea on BHN.

OK, so it is probably in the 10 ish range, maybe 14 tops, if the oven baking during powder coating tempers it.. That's interesting. Gives me something to think about.

 

[popper]

Not 223 but 300BO. 1:10 18" 145gr PB WD after PC, 2100 fps chrony. BHN aproaching 35 bullet dents superhard bar. Sized 3085, large as it will take. Near MOA @ 100 posted target in another thread. No leading. Mould has a very small groove. Now use a GC version without the groove, that works fine. Chrony vs magnetospeed, I get the MS about 100 fps lower. Don't have or need a 223 but IMHO the force on the small base is primary problem. It generates heat and the bullet is so small it gets hot at start & deforms easily. Plus any deformity in casting is a large % of weight. I'm 40% > bore and 2.5 x larger. Friction is pressure determined but area dissipates heat.

 

[fiver]

if you really wanna play around you could send me a batch and I could cut some cannelure grooves into some bullets for you.

 

[BBerguson]

if you really wanna play around you could send me a batch and I could cut some cannelure grooves into some bullets for you.

How do you do this Fiver? On a lathe or special cannelure tool? Curious because I was thinking of cutting some 45 caliber bullets to accept a gas check...

 

[creosote]

I have the Corbin cannelure tool.
When I've tried to use it with lead, the rollers just smooth out the cannelure.
More pressure just makes the bullet smaller.

Harder alloy might help. But I gave up.

 

[Mitty38]

When I've tried to use it with lead, the rollers just smooth out the cannelure.

Was just checking that out. Because if I can not make this slick side work to my satisfaction, the tool or something like it, was a consideration.
From their web sight.
The HCT-1 is made for jacketed bullets. The HCT-2 and HCT-3 are used for lead bullets (for lubrication knurling or grooves). However, the HCT-1 works well with hard lead bullets (soft lead tends to clog the teeth of the wheel).

 

[creosote]

Thanks mitty.
Thats my problem.
Just looked at the instructions. Mine is the HTC-1.
If I read them, I would have known.
The only reason the instructions are still in the bag, is because the lack of pictures.
I gotsta have pictures.

 

[fiver]

I have the corbin too and it's fine with jacketed bullets, but I have 2 others that are super simple little tools that will easily roll cannelures on cast bullets.
I don't know who made them [shrug] maybe ch4D, maybe corbin?, but they are just a bent piece of rod with a little wheel on it and a set screw for the length.
waay less complicated than the fancy CH one