EMMETT.
- Thread starter fiver
- Start date
fiver
Well-Known Member
yep.
powder has gone through a kind of revolution the last few years.
many of them have had their base stocks changed.
most of them have had their final rinse changed so the residue on the powder is some different.
most people don't see any change in the powder, but it has lead to that explosion of new powders and the loss of some of the old ones.
I think over the next 20-30 years we will start to see a bigger migration towards the newer generation of powders, and most of the older ones being changed or dropped altogether.
some of them older ones have already changed, nobody is gonna come right out and say they changed but many of the more observant shooters will see something just isn't quite exactly right.
powder has gone through a kind of revolution the last few years.
many of them have had their base stocks changed.
most of them have had their final rinse changed so the residue on the powder is some different.
most people don't see any change in the powder, but it has lead to that explosion of new powders and the loss of some of the old ones.
I think over the next 20-30 years we will start to see a bigger migration towards the newer generation of powders, and most of the older ones being changed or dropped altogether.
some of them older ones have already changed, nobody is gonna come right out and say they changed but many of the more observant shooters will see something just isn't quite exactly right.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
IMHO, fiver hit the nail on the head! Two things happened; Hercules sold to Alliant and DuPont sold to IMR. In both cases original processes stopped for making powder and newer technologies took over. Mainly because of the cost of processing the chemical wastes of making powder and the time it took. As older reloaders die off, maybe soon than we think, 
, old brands will go away. And there isn't anything the old brands did that you can't get a replacement for in the new powders. Ric
, old brands will go away. And there isn't anything the old brands did that you can't get a replacement for in the new powders. Ric
JonB
Halcyon member
Can I expect the 2% or 3% with the 8 lb jug of Promo (black jug) that I bought 4 years ago...I still haven't opened yet, as I have at least 6 lbs of 70s vintage Red Dot to use up first...I thought I would have gone through all that (20 lbs of old 1970s Red Dot that I got in a estate sale in 2005) by now.
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Not just sell-offs and re-formulations, but different manufacturing plants in different countries.
As to the new formulas, I bought my first can of CFE 223 and am looking forward to seeing if it lives up to its advertizing. If it doesn't outperform IMR 4895 it'll just sit. I figured that the new-to-me .223 cartridge deserved a test with a modern powder, because I'm not about to buy "new and improved" just because and start load development anew.
As to the new formulas, I bought my first can of CFE 223 and am looking forward to seeing if it lives up to its advertizing. If it doesn't outperform IMR 4895 it'll just sit. I figured that the new-to-me .223 cartridge deserved a test with a modern powder, because I'm not about to buy "new and improved" just because and start load development anew.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Oh yes! The Delaware sites are EPA hazardous waste sites, just like the Peters plant in Ohio. Millions will be spent to clean them up. The plant in St Marks, FL and in Australia have less than 5% of the waste products as the old plants.
"General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems – Canada (GD-OTS Canada) Valleyfield specializes in the development and manufacture of sophisticated and advanced energetic materials for both the military and commercial markets."
When they bought the DuPont powder division, everything went to Canada, single and double base powder manufacturing and sold under the IMR brand. They can keep it there because Canada has relaxed environmental laws for many industries.
fiver
Well-Known Member
remember promo didn't even come out until after the initial cleanup of red-dot so it certainly has some nitro in it.
promos is kind of a ''crumpled up'' version of red-dot, [basically someone rook a short cut at the plant] so the quality control isn't as good on the back end, and the density varies from lot to lot.
CFE-223 is a very nice powder.
it's not really comparable to 4895 since it is truly 2 steps slower. [H-380/blc-2/335 family]
I really like it [even though I have zero idea if it cleans copper or not]
promos is kind of a ''crumpled up'' version of red-dot, [basically someone rook a short cut at the plant] so the quality control isn't as good on the back end, and the density varies from lot to lot.
CFE-223 is a very nice powder.
it's not really comparable to 4895 since it is truly 2 steps slower. [H-380/blc-2/335 family]
I really like it [even though I have zero idea if it cleans copper or not]
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Historical information; where did Bullseye powder come from? When DuPont was still making single and double based powders before the anti-trust suit, they had made lots of Unique and Lighting and other nitroglycerin powders. Literally the sweepings off the floor at the end of each shift was saved, blended and became Bullseye powder.
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
The initial .223 compatible powders I had on hand were H 335, BL-C(2), the IMRs 3031, 4198 and 4895, and Varget, with 4895 being the accuracy winner (didn't test 4198). I bought the can of CFE 223 because of it advertizing claims and the "223" in its name, if it actually is less copper fouling all the better but that was never a major consideration.
I read that Promo was Red Dot floor sweepings, but don't know the truth of it.
I read that Promo was Red Dot floor sweepings, but don't know the truth of it.
F
freebullet
Guest
Not doubting you but I was slightly flabbergasted you didn't find love with 335, blc, or varget. Be inclined to rework those real slow over again to. Never met a 223 that didn't shine with one. Maybe look at other possible causes for the undesirable results with them, especially if the cfe flounders.
Ian
Notorious member
Another vote for H335 here, especially with 62-grain and heavier bullets and barrels longer than 16".
I thought Promo was the general garbage disposal for lots of any powder that didn't meet spec. Deterrent stripped, base re-worked, and re-coated to something akin to Red Dot by weight but not volume. IIRC anyway.
I thought Promo was the general garbage disposal for lots of any powder that didn't meet spec. Deterrent stripped, base re-worked, and re-coated to something akin to Red Dot by weight but not volume. IIRC anyway.
fiver
Well-Known Member
it basically is, but you'd have to work pretty hard to get some of them down to the red dot burn speed.[blue-dot]
I guess it's easier to make a powder burn quicker than slower, and red-dot is the most popular powder in the U.S.
I kind of half wonder if that isn't where a few of the not so new newer powders come from right about the same time.
I mean why have American select, it's dead center [back and forth] of red and green-dot's.
same thing with BE-86 [which stands for bulls-eye -86] it's right between unique and Herco,,, why? I mean what case were they thinking of there?
the 40 short sure seems like a perfect fit, but so is a titch more Herco.
I guess it's easier to make a powder burn quicker than slower, and red-dot is the most popular powder in the U.S.
I kind of half wonder if that isn't where a few of the not so new newer powders come from right about the same time.
I mean why have American select, it's dead center [back and forth] of red and green-dot's.
same thing with BE-86 [which stands for bulls-eye -86] it's right between unique and Herco,,, why? I mean what case were they thinking of there?
the 40 short sure seems like a perfect fit, but so is a titch more Herco.
Ian
Notorious member
Herco, HS-6, Blue Dot, Power Pistol, and to a much lesser extent True Blue (isn't it just a rebadged AA #9 or something like that?) all seem to have limited applications. Magnum shotshell or almost but not quite magnum handgun cartridges. The .40, 9mm, and .357 Sig need love too.
I've said it before and it may bear mentioning again that unlike the others above, True Blue is amazingly consistent even at .38 SPL pressures. Dirty, but dead-accurate and single-digit SDs down to about 12KPSI. I think the super-fine granulation makes it more consistent at low pressure even though it is heavily-deterred. Kinda like 2400 but faster.
I've said it before and it may bear mentioning again that unlike the others above, True Blue is amazingly consistent even at .38 SPL pressures. Dirty, but dead-accurate and single-digit SDs down to about 12KPSI. I think the super-fine granulation makes it more consistent at low pressure even though it is heavily-deterred. Kinda like 2400 but faster.