Figured Out My Flyers
- Thread starter Snakeoil
- Start date
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Have not been here in a bit. Also feeling a bit guilty that after asking for a long range group and it appears I'm the only one interested in shooting long range. Oh well...
That said, the rifle continues to do well. If the conditions are favorable and/or my spotter and I do our jobs, the rifle will put some very nice groups on target out to 500 yds. About a month or so ago, I shot a silhouette match using iron sights, a Lyman 48 on the rear and a 17a front. The photo below shows a 10+ shot group (not sure how many additional sighters are on the target) on the turkey at 400 yds. Needless to say, it made my day. Shot at 39 that day. All planets and stars were apparently properly aligned.
I'm still using the same load, 17gr of 2400 under an NOE 314210 bullet cast 20:1 and sized to 0.314 with Hornady gas check, and Federal Gold Match primers with NRA 50/50 lube.. Average muzzle velocity is 1424 fps.
That said, the rifle continues to do well. If the conditions are favorable and/or my spotter and I do our jobs, the rifle will put some very nice groups on target out to 500 yds. About a month or so ago, I shot a silhouette match using iron sights, a Lyman 48 on the rear and a 17a front. The photo below shows a 10+ shot group (not sure how many additional sighters are on the target) on the turkey at 400 yds. Needless to say, it made my day. Shot at 39 that day. All planets and stars were apparently properly aligned.
I'm still using the same load, 17gr of 2400 under an NOE 314210 bullet cast 20:1 and sized to 0.314 with Hornady gas check, and Federal Gold Match primers with NRA 50/50 lube.. Average muzzle velocity is 1424 fps.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I realized I was blowing my horn a little. But my true intention was to show what can be done with an old warhorse if you find the right recipe for success. In this case, slugging the barrel to find that it was way oversize was the key to success. I was using bullets sized around 0.311 and had days of glory as well as those that could be described as the "agony of defeat". Flyers that would come out of nowhere after a run of laser-like accuracy for previous shots. Then days where I would outline the entire Ram and conditions were not the primary cause.
Not sure how old you are, but I would encourage any and all to never give up at shooting long range. My shooting partner is 84 and he'll not be at our shoot this weekend because he'll be shooting a 2-day Palma match out to 1000 yds.
Eyesight can be fixed with a scope. Concentration and trigger control is just a matter of focus. Focus is the one thing we probably have no control over. But you do the best you can with what you have to work with. We have a number of shooters that shoot all the events offhand. One never shoots the same rifle twice, as he has a pretty extensive collection of fine old rifles. Long range is a challenge. But that's what makes it fun and interesting. Shooting a perfect score at 100 yds is nice, but when you can do it all the time, it loses it's luster. Long range can have you talking to yourself before the first 5 targets have been shot. It's the challenge presented by the conditions that make it fun... at least for me. We have new folks show up at the club and see us shooting off the bench with scopes (mostly vintage Unertls and Targetspots) and they immediately think we are taking all the challenge out of it. Our standard reply is "Go get your rifle.".
regards,
Rob
regards,
Rob
Not sure how old you are, but I would encourage any and all to never give up at shooting long range. My shooting partner is 84 and he'll not be at our shoot this weekend because he'll be shooting a 2-day Palma match out to 1000 yds.
Eyesight can be fixed with a scope. Concentration and trigger control is just a matter of focus. Focus is the one thing we probably have no control over. But you do the best you can with what you have to work with. We have a number of shooters that shoot all the events offhand. One never shoots the same rifle twice, as he has a pretty extensive collection of fine old rifles. Long range is a challenge. But that's what makes it fun and interesting. Shooting a perfect score at 100 yds is nice, but when you can do it all the time, it loses it's luster. Long range can have you talking to yourself before the first 5 targets have been shot. It's the challenge presented by the conditions that make it fun... at least for me. We have new folks show up at the club and see us shooting off the bench with scopes (mostly vintage Unertls and Targetspots) and they immediately think we are taking all the challenge out of it. Our standard reply is "Go get your rifle.".
regards,
Rob
regards,
Rob
RBHarter
West Central AR
I've never had the skills off the bench . In part because of my left eye dominance and the butt laying right on top of that artery . Can't shoot quail either ....... First hunt first season on dove 7 birds , 9 shots , with a full choked 410 ...... I don't shoot trap or skeet well either .
If the tools are right in the field it's almost like it's a different plane of existence . I've shot a little at extended ranges but it was to challenge myself and from field positions never prone . The bench gives me "white coat" syndrome .
There's a new member here that shot a sub MOA 1220 yd group with a 50 cal Rice barreled Hawkins .
If the tools are right in the field it's almost like it's a different plane of existence . I've shot a little at extended ranges but it was to challenge myself and from field positions never prone . The bench gives me "white coat" syndrome .
There's a new member here that shot a sub MOA 1220 yd group with a 50 cal Rice barreled Hawkins .
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
The Schuetzen guys were at our club today. They shoot at Wilton twice a year. It coincided with one of our Sunday Matches and they take a section of the firing line which we take the rest. Those guys put some very impressive groups on paper shooting plain based bullets with smokeless. Granted, they all breech-seat. Between targets in our match, I would swing the spotting scope over to their targets at 100 and 200 yds and the groups were hard to believe, especially when you consider they shoot part of the course of fire, offhand.
Today, I shot the 03 off the bench with my 20x Unertl. This is our "Vermont Match. Round gongs, 6", 9" and 12" are set at 100, 150, 200 respectively and pigs set at 300. I shot clean except for 200 yds. Conditions were changing mild winds and a mirage that changed with constant regularity from 9-3, 3-9, boil, ect, all while taking a sight picture. My partner was shooting a Palma match today so I had a partner that is still learning to read the conditions. He forgets to read the wind, probably because I'm shooting a scope and thinks I'm reading the flags, too. I had shots break perfectly at 200 yds that went high or right and it had to be conditions changing just as the shot broke. I missed 4 out of 10 and was feeling sorry for myself until I looked at those Schuetzen targets at 200 yds and realized I needed a severe dose of humility.
It was on the 200 yd target that I realized I needed to rely on myself to read all the conditions and just let my spotter call the impacts. Shot clean after that. But what was really interesting was reading the conditions, holding off to compensate and then having the round go exactly where I aimed rather than where I expect it to go. This happened multiple times at 300 yds. Yet the guys on the bench next to me had the opposite happen. They would hold off to compensate and still the bullet would impact way off the point of aim and off the target beyond where the conditions read should have taken it. That's what makes the game so much fun. You never really have it all figured out. Every match includes something new to learn.
Based upon the Schuetzen wind flags (generic term for some very elaborate wind reading contraptions) the guys used, I'm going to modify our standard range wind flags to see if I cannot dial some additional sensitivity into them. I suspect we miss subtle wind changes and this is working against us. Our current flags are simply rebar stuck in the ground with surveyor's tape tied to it. I need to make the tape tail longer and put it on a pivot. I need to be able to remove the pivot because we have members that like to shoot at whatever happens to be on the range.
As a sidenote, when we were picking up the targets at the end of the match, we found a bullet lying on the ground that could have been reloaded into a case. Only marks were the rifling. I stuck it in my pocket so I could mike it when I got home. The grooves measured a very consistent 0.310" and the lands 0.300. So, it would appear that grooves were cut a tad deep on that particular rifle. Should make it a better cast bullet rifle.
Today, I shot the 03 off the bench with my 20x Unertl. This is our "Vermont Match. Round gongs, 6", 9" and 12" are set at 100, 150, 200 respectively and pigs set at 300. I shot clean except for 200 yds. Conditions were changing mild winds and a mirage that changed with constant regularity from 9-3, 3-9, boil, ect, all while taking a sight picture. My partner was shooting a Palma match today so I had a partner that is still learning to read the conditions. He forgets to read the wind, probably because I'm shooting a scope and thinks I'm reading the flags, too. I had shots break perfectly at 200 yds that went high or right and it had to be conditions changing just as the shot broke. I missed 4 out of 10 and was feeling sorry for myself until I looked at those Schuetzen targets at 200 yds and realized I needed a severe dose of humility.
It was on the 200 yd target that I realized I needed to rely on myself to read all the conditions and just let my spotter call the impacts. Shot clean after that. But what was really interesting was reading the conditions, holding off to compensate and then having the round go exactly where I aimed rather than where I expect it to go. This happened multiple times at 300 yds. Yet the guys on the bench next to me had the opposite happen. They would hold off to compensate and still the bullet would impact way off the point of aim and off the target beyond where the conditions read should have taken it. That's what makes the game so much fun. You never really have it all figured out. Every match includes something new to learn.
Based upon the Schuetzen wind flags (generic term for some very elaborate wind reading contraptions) the guys used, I'm going to modify our standard range wind flags to see if I cannot dial some additional sensitivity into them. I suspect we miss subtle wind changes and this is working against us. Our current flags are simply rebar stuck in the ground with surveyor's tape tied to it. I need to make the tape tail longer and put it on a pivot. I need to be able to remove the pivot because we have members that like to shoot at whatever happens to be on the range.
As a sidenote, when we were picking up the targets at the end of the match, we found a bullet lying on the ground that could have been reloaded into a case. Only marks were the rifling. I stuck it in my pocket so I could mike it when I got home. The grooves measured a very consistent 0.310" and the lands 0.300. So, it would appear that grooves were cut a tad deep on that particular rifle. Should make it a better cast bullet rifle.
Joshua
Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
The original five groove M1917 barrels were cut this way.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Did not know that. There are a few of those at the club. Will see if they are aware of this.
Rick H
Well-Known Member
Simple but pretty effective. A .223/5.56mm case opened up to fit diameter of old aluminum arrow shaft. The inside of the flash hole deburred and chamfered. Simply tape a strip of surveyor's tape around the case. It is very sensitive to direction. The arrow target point forms the bearing point and you shorten the case to open it up for lower stability. You can simply stick the arrow in the ground or on a board if on hardpack.
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Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Nice. Elegance in simplicity. I just don't see myself dragging a washing machine to the range every week. 
Our flags are presently on rebar. So, my plan is a removable cap, probably made from PVC with a 20 penny nail as the flag spindle. Your idea of using old cases as the other half of the swivel is perfect and will probably work great. I might just bring the rebar home and drill the ends for the nails rather than make the caps.
I was thinking of drilling out the flash holes and putting used primers back in place as the anvils should make great bearings with a point machined on the nail. But I'll try the flash hole as is, first.
Might also use plastic, stainless or aluminum rod if I decide to leave the that part in the rebar. A nail will rust and kill the bearing properties.
The old case idea was right in front of me and it never dawned on me. Homer Simpson moment for sure.
Oooh... just had an extra synapse fire. A very simple solution is to drill the rebar. Then use a bent wire to hold the flag and drop down into that hole. That's how the biathlon flags I found on line are made. See pics below.
Our flags are presently on rebar. So, my plan is a removable cap, probably made from PVC with a 20 penny nail as the flag spindle. Your idea of using old cases as the other half of the swivel is perfect and will probably work great. I might just bring the rebar home and drill the ends for the nails rather than make the caps.
I was thinking of drilling out the flash holes and putting used primers back in place as the anvils should make great bearings with a point machined on the nail. But I'll try the flash hole as is, first.
Might also use plastic, stainless or aluminum rod if I decide to leave the that part in the rebar. A nail will rust and kill the bearing properties.
The old case idea was right in front of me and it never dawned on me. Homer Simpson moment for sure.
Oooh... just had an extra synapse fire. A very simple solution is to drill the rebar. Then use a bent wire to hold the flag and drop down into that hole. That's how the biathlon flags I found on line are made. See pics below.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
those little nylon type washers are super cheap too, and would provide some good friction relief.
one thing to remember is there are snap and ball swivels and there are [good] swivels for the flag to rotate on.
even the fishing guy's get pretty worked up about good swivels and they spend a bit extra for the good ones because they do move a lot more freely with no binding.
one thing to remember is there are snap and ball swivels and there are [good] swivels for the flag to rotate on.
even the fishing guy's get pretty worked up about good swivels and they spend a bit extra for the good ones because they do move a lot more freely with no binding.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
That's it. I was already working on wind flags for this weekend's shoot and this design you've just shown will work splendidly. I have been JB welding campaign sign wire stakes into some 4' fiber glass crappie pole tips I have left over from another project. I have heavy stainless wire, swivels, and flagging. Oh boy!Nice. Elegance in simplicity. I just don't see myself dragging a washing machine to the range every week.
Our flags are presently on rebar. So, my plan is a removable cap, probably made from PVC with a 20 penny nail as the flag spindle. Your idea of using old cases as the other half of the swivel is perfect and will probably work great. I might just bring the rebar home and drill the ends for the nails rather than make the caps.
I was thinking of drilling out the flash holes and putting used primers back in place as the anvils should make great bearings with a point machined on the nail. But I'll try the flash hole as is, first.
Might also use plastic, stainless or aluminum rod if I decide to leave the that part in the rebar. A nail will rust and kill the bearing properties.
The old case idea was right in front of me and it never dawned on me. Homer Simpson moment for sure.
Oooh... just had an extra synapse fire. A very simple solution is to drill the rebar. Then use a bent wire to hold the flag and drop down into that hole. That's how the biathlon flags I found on line are made. See pics below.
View attachment 21172
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
I believe we have just created a monster.
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
WELL GLADYOU GOT THERE!! Out side of the comment on the lube and diamenter of 1917 Enfields there was quite a bit of well meaning mis information especially on the sight base, the HS BARREL WOULD HAVE COME WITH THE SIGHT BASES INSTALLED.The collar would have a timing mark stamped on it that would align with a mark on the receiver, the pin referenced in a comment was actually a "wedge" that was installed after the barrel was installed and both the sight collar and receiver where then drilled to accept the pin "wedge"it was ment to keep the sight from rotating under battle conditions, the pin that actually holds the sight in place is drilled through the collar AND barrel, this pin must be removed in order to remove the sight collar
most people ground the area to expose the pin so they could punch it out,SEE PICTURE , As for barrels the HS @ $400.00 was very reasonable considering it comes with installed sight bases which the criterions dont, saving well over$100.00in parts and labor, one of the best shooting Springfields I ever owned was a MK 1, with a two groove barrel installed I never had a S pringfield or 1917 that wasn't a tack driverwith cast bullets,once i found the correct diamenter bullet for them, that's why I have a Lyman turent press with NOE sizing dies from .310 to .313 , the 1917 has a five groove"5R" barrel and Medford rifling, the grooves GENERALLY RUN .311, bore .30, adding 2 tho means they prefer a bullet at or over,313
quicksylver
Well-Known Member
It is widEly accepted that two groove barrels are the winners when using bore riding cast bullets , in short ther are no BAD SPRINGFIELD BARRELS IMHO,DAN