Figuring Out The Condor Cuddlers--Totally Off-Topic

[CZ93X62]

I am striving to keep the Kalifornistan Stink and its attendant unleaded bullet fetish OUT of the unsullied discussion venues of the Proper Bullet Metal subject matter this site is dedicated to. As I start assembling ammo to address this perversity, I am getting some surprises.

To clarify--this is NOT wholly-new ground for me. When we lived in Ridgecrest, my local deer zone (D-8, Kern Plateau outside the National Parks) was unleaded-only since we landed in 2008. I set 1 rifle aside for this purpose--my Ruger 77R in 6.5 x 55 Swedish. The Barnes 120 grain TTSX got press-ganged into service, and shot well enough for service on deer--about 1.25" to 1.5" 5-shotters at 100 yards. I mourned the departure of the 140 grain NosParts for this rifle--these did 3/4" to 7/8" 5-holers at 100 very reliably. No muleys found their way into the scope reticle from 2008-2013, but the occasional coyote got his pelt dusted off properly if I did my part. DRT, every time. BANG/flop. Bullet performance was "Rated R".

One of the most ardent hunters I know--Ammohead--swears by Barnes TSX on larger game. Mind you, he lives in the USA where NosParts and Core-Lokts are still Coin Of The Realm. He has seen enough recovered Barnes solid copper bullets to conclude that TSX and TTSX are The Real Deal. Good enough for me, and it's not like I have a wide range of options if I want to stay uncited in CA. "When in Rome.....", and all that jazz.

Earlier today I was perusing the data for the 22 Hornet and the Barnes 30 grain Varmint Grenade. With its powder choices, it can get to the 3300 FPS mark at the muzzle. .101 bC, though--basically, it is outta gas and dropping like a rock much past 150 yards. Up to that point, it stays pretty flat and fast--but at 200 yards it drops 4"+ from its zeroed range of 150 yards. Conversely, a 200 yard zero means a 3" mid-range trajectory. Bottom line--copper bullets cost me 50+ yards of rat whacking ability. Cuss words can go [HERE] as you see fit.

 

[Rick H]

I tried the Barnes solids in my 7mm RemMag when preparing for a western hunt. I thought the tough lighter weight bullet with attendant higher ballistic coefficient would be the ticket for extending the point blank range for long range mule deer. I could not get them to shoot with any acceptable accuracy. I tried the long jump recommended by Barnes and everything else...no go in my Remington 700. After spending way too much money experimenting I settled on the Hornady 162gr. BTSP at 2960fps. It had a 300 yard point blank range when zeroed at 245....and dropped my mulie drt at just under 300 yds.

I understand lead is not legal for game in CA. I'm glad I don't have to put up with such silly rules. I don't plan on hunting in CA......ever.

 

[Brad]

My 270 Win shoots the 130 TSX quite well. I like how it performed in Africa for me on a wide variety of game. We recovered a single bullet and it looked exactly like those in the Barnes ads.
The 150 shows signs of tipping on paper at 100 so I went to the 130s.
i did find that the harder I drove them the better they shot. I ended up with a case full of RE22.

 

[CZ93X62]

BELIEVE ME--if I had my way, copper bullets in my rat strafers would not be happening. Complaining about it won't change a thing, so I get on board and manage the reality of the sustained unreality of life in this carjacker's theme park.

The 223 and 22-250 can get some SCREAMING velocities with the bullets meant to service them. The accuracy may or may not be there. For paper, steel, or people the nasty old lead-containing bullets remain OK for the present time.

 

[CZ93X62]

I did find that the harder I drove them the better they shot.

That was my experience with the 6.5 x 55 as well. A number of hunters have said this same thing--the all-coppers like being run hard. We shall see what happens. I snagged 2 pounds of Lil Gun and 1 pound of H-110 for the Hornet loads (and a few other calibers).

 

[Rcmaveric]

Good ole Cally... thats what got me reloading and started me into casting. I miss Sweet Water and the Condor Peeks.

 

[Ian]

I'm not much help since at my house copper is almost exclusively relegated to gas checks, bucking rivets, and countertops.

However, Karlina and her sister enjoy a diet of Sierra 140s...and did well enough during one particular episode of Barnes TSX-FB 130-grain bullets that I think it bears mentioning here. Here's my experience: Scattergun groups until I approached the lands to the point of contact. The Swedes typically have .268" throats and generous chamber necks which support .264" bullets about as much as a California politician supports the Bill of Rights. The Swedes also have a leade angle which is of a much shallower taper than the bullet ogive that Barnes uses, so seating the bullet to have light contact with the lands will still provide for a gradual rise in engraving force at launch and no ugly pressure spike. The other trick was to use converted .30-'06 brass to obtain thick necks and minimal neck clearance and to fireform that brass using a narrow strip of cellophane tape just forward of the extractor groove to ensure proper centering if the case head. I do all this anyway to get acceptable results from my cast bullet loads, but found it also made a critical difference with the TSX bullets, though the Sierra 140 SP bullets would consistently group 3/4 MOA out to 500 yards using PPU or Norma brass which wore the correct headstamp. H414 was the fuel of choice for all the non-cast bullets in the 6.5x55 and my particular climate.

 

[CZ93X62]

That Ruger is spot-on.......264" x .256", throat is about .2645" or so. Castings sized @ .265" shoot very well for me.

I follow Barnes' rules regarding leade stand-off, .050". I haven't played around with seating adjustments (yet). 1.5 MOA or a mite less will do fine for deer at the close ranges I'll be hunting (maybe tomorrow).

 

[Ian]

With a modern chamber, absolutely follow the manufacturer's guidelines. With the antique military chambers there is some opportunity for safe deviation.

 

[Bret4207]

Your observations mirror my experience with steel shot Al. For years the Fiocchi "Golden Pheasant" loads of #5's in the 16 ga dropped ducks like they were struck by the hammer of Thor. I was good out at the limit of my self imposed range of about 100 feet. Being the straight arrow type, I tried some steel. Sheesh! Might as well have used a Nerf gun. Dog got hit shortly after that and that pretty much ended my duck hunting anyway. But, yeah, "NEW!", "IMPROVED!!!" usually means "Don't work fer snot."

 

[CZ93X62]

The jury is definitely still out on the accuracy or net effectiveness of these Wonder Bullets. The few messages I have gotten from people whose experiences I trust are a mixed bag. "Not going hunting" is not an acceptable position.

 

[Rick H]

The jury is definitely still out on the accuracy or net effectiveness of these Wonder Bullets. The few messages I have gotten from people whose experiences I trust are a mixed bag. "Not going hunting" is not an acceptable position.

CZ93X62, I only tried them in my 7mm RemMag. with 140gr. Barnes trying to push them fast in a very accurate rifle. Best I could get was 2 1/2" at 100 yds with a load that shot no flatter than my 162 gr. Hornady. The Hornady will group 5 shots sub moa. I wish you the best luck with them. (My experiments were with the old style Barnes solids, without the grooves) I tried seating them from the lands to the recommended setback. I couldn't drive them fast enough to give any trajectory advantage and the loss of accuracy was unacceptable.
I wish you better luck than I had.

 

[Outpost75]

Are cast bullets of Zamac zinc die casting alloy legal to hunt with in CA? It would seem that a flatnosed Zn bullet at high velocity wouild make an effective hunting load.

 

[RicinYakima]

Sorry, most common is Zarmak #3 that is 0.005% lead and unusable. There appear to be no die cast alloys without lead. Went through this 15 years ago in WA state while on the Department of Ecology. If it has lead in any amount (parts per million and detectable) it is illegal to use for "shells or bullets".

 

[CZ93X62]

Outpost--

I would tend toward Ric's view as far as CA law is concerned. Cal-DFW recognizes Barnes bullets and commersh rimfire unleaded ammo. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". I ran into a warden while glassing along One Horse Ridge a couple weeks back--he said a lot of his partners were "overlooking" bullet composition this season, in their view the State gave insufficient notice of the change in bullet needs. An underlying concern is that the lighter copper bullets will increase crippling losses. I heard the steel shot arguments in both directions back in the late 1970s, I don't know what to believe. The whole question generates a lot more heat than light.

Airgun hunters are exempt from non-lead ammunition regs--lead pellets are still OK. I guess Cal-DFW has never heard of Prometheus pellets. Consistency--the last refuge of the lazy and unimaginative.

The 223 and 22-250 offer no powder space complications with Barnes-listed powder weights in their cases. 22 Hornet and Lil Gun is another story--the listed starting load filled the PPU cases to within .020" of the case mouth. I am not comfy with compressing spherical powders, so Lil Gun is OUT. H-110 has behaved itself, max loads of 12.8 grains are 100% density, so "good to go". 30 grainers are supposed to run 3250 FPS or so from the Hornet--we shall see how they cluster. AA-9 might get the nod as a 2nd powder, and I might crunch some numbers and extrapolate some 2400 loads as well.

If anyone has Lil Gun loads for 25/20 WCF and 32/20 WCF (High Velocity/Win 1892-level, lead/jacketed bullets), don't keep them a secret. TIA.

 

[Ian]

What about this? https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

 

[462]

Ian,
Let me see if I can state this without getting political and running afoul or the forum rules, and if I remember the whole fiasco correctly.
The condor cuddlers' agenda is not driven by the type of metal bullets are made of, nor is it driven by science. The lead ban law was enacted based upon a dubious, non-peer reviewed paper that was written and presented as science, while the scientifically written and peer reviewed paper was never allowed to be presented as evidence against the proposed ban.

As far as I know, there is absolutely no scientific evidence that any condor ever died from eating a bullet containing lead, or any other type of bullet metal, the same as there is no scientific evidence that any lead wheel weight ever flew off a car's wheel, landed in a waterway, and polluted downstream water.

 

[Ian]

I knew the gist of how that came to be, but like NFA regulations it's irrelevant how it happened, it has happened and if we wish to to pursue certain hobbies (whatever they are) in the face of prohibitive laws, we need to seek legal alternatives. People in Korea hunt with air rifles because they aren't regulated like firearms and are a lot easier to obtain. If I wanted to continue hunting in CA with bullets I made myself, I'd seriously look into alternative alloys and methods. It seems Rotometals has been ahead of the game on this one and developed a suitable if not ideal replacement for lead alloy. The only real issue I can see is trying to explain to a game warden that your silverish cast bismuth/tin bullets don't contain any lead.

 

[RBHarter]

I once questioned how they were identifying all of the alternative nontixic shots in the field that were nonmagnetic . The answer was magnatrometers (SP) . I just took it for granted that Nevada got a federal grant to buy 20 of them for the 17 wardens during the season and the 10 or so off season biologists .

 

[fiver]

heh no, even the Feds don't have them.
they also don't have a clue if it ain't steel in them shells or doesn't say steel on them.
I finally got to the point where I was just reloading hulls I picked up that said steel right on the front of them to avoid the hassle.
they just automatically assumed your AA, Cheddite, or Fed gold medal hulls had lead in them, and then you had to cut one open when their fridge magnet didn't stick.
if they looked like factory steel shells and said steel on them, you'd just have to show them a few shells in your pocket without any check whatsoever other than jamming a rod in your magazine.