Figuring Out The Condor Cuddlers--Totally Off-Topic
- Thread starter CZ93X62
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
That Roto Bismuth/Tin alloy is interesting. I wonder about melt temps and how the metal gets along with mould block metals.
I carried samples of the Barnes 6.5 mm bullets I had loaded during deer season. The warden looked at them briefly after the rifle check they always do, and said "Thank you".
I carried samples of the Barnes 6.5 mm bullets I had loaded during deer season. The warden looked at them briefly after the rifle check they always do, and said "Thank you".
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Ian
Notorious member
The things that would concern me is how it will end up size-wise and how much belocity can it take in hot weather or long barrels with the low melt point. I've run up against heat weakening of typical ww alloy on numerous occasions and going to 50/50 ww/soft with a 40⁰ higher melt point actually makes a noticeable difference in how long the barrel must cool between shots in a long string.
Buying one of the NOE .30-caliber paper-patch Harrison copies and wrapping the bullets might be a great place to start with this 19 bhn alloy. Get that velocity waaaaay up to deal with the lower mass, use the paper to eliminate heat fade and alloy (lack of) flow issues, and see where it all ends up.
Buying one of the NOE .30-caliber paper-patch Harrison copies and wrapping the bullets might be a great place to start with this 19 bhn alloy. Get that velocity waaaaay up to deal with the lower mass, use the paper to eliminate heat fade and alloy (lack of) flow issues, and see where it all ends up.
fiver
Well-Known Member
the Feds would routinely stand at the gates to the parking lot, or just drive around the impoundment dikes looking at you through binoculars.
if you shot a couple of ducks it wasn't uncommon for them to drive out on a Dike and yell at you through a bull horn to come over and talk to them.
after a bit,, I'd get half way there and they'd recognize me and say never mind and drive off.
it paid off being known at times, like when they'd do surveys, I'd get waved to the front of the line rattle off the numbers and species and be on my way without ever leaving the Scout.
if you shot a couple of ducks it wasn't uncommon for them to drive out on a Dike and yell at you through a bull horn to come over and talk to them.
after a bit,, I'd get half way there and they'd recognize me and say never mind and drive off.
it paid off being known at times, like when they'd do surveys, I'd get waved to the front of the line rattle off the numbers and species and be on my way without ever leaving the Scout.
RBHarter
West Central AR
Ian long ago I spent a lot of time looking at all of the new nontoxic shot . Bismuth was all the rave at 110% the weight of lead per pellet , the down side was that it was brittle there and it was some discovered that an 1 1/8oz load was only getting about 3/4 oz on the target as the rest was pulverized in the bottom of the wads . Buffering helped but only to about 85% of the shot charge and damaged shot was breaking up on target . The 1st and second generation of Bismuth shot shells really weren't any better than steel except they didn't score the older barrels . Bumping up the tin , if memory serves me , to 20% fixed the break up of the shot and made it 99% safe in all modern guns but they paid for it in weight loss . Pellet weights were something like 96% of lead . So the trap snobs with the fancy plated shot were breaking even for stuff like nickle plated and copper plated chilled shot and the Bismuth . By then there were 2 tungsten shots available wads and load data available to drive steel one size bigger to 1500 fps and loads on the shelf over 1400 fps in 5,4,3,2,1,BB,and BBB under $16 a box .
I've seen some in the field but not much .
They makers finally settled on the 19% tin for 96% of lead and the additional speed available from new powder , case and wad design more than makes up the difference . I would think that if the shot will stand the sloppy crush movement at launch and the smash down from .710 to .690 at 1380+ it should work with a gas check . Falling back on slow , long rise ,long push powders and soft primers sneaking up on it I don't see why we can't 90+ of lead performance out of it . Target performance may be something of a challenge .
I don't like copper bullets , I don't have a reason really , long for weight maybe , but I always thought that swaged copper shot should have been the answer but it has to do with the copper break down making acids ......maybe in salt marsh but I'm not the chemistry guy I'm the wrench , file , and drill press guy .
I've seen some in the field but not much .
They makers finally settled on the 19% tin for 96% of lead and the additional speed available from new powder , case and wad design more than makes up the difference . I would think that if the shot will stand the sloppy crush movement at launch and the smash down from .710 to .690 at 1380+ it should work with a gas check . Falling back on slow , long rise ,long push powders and soft primers sneaking up on it I don't see why we can't 90+ of lead performance out of it . Target performance may be something of a challenge .
I don't like copper bullets , I don't have a reason really , long for weight maybe , but I always thought that swaged copper shot should have been the answer but it has to do with the copper break down making acids ......maybe in salt marsh but I'm not the chemistry guy I'm the wrench , file , and drill press guy .
fiver
Well-Known Member
the original tin content used was more like 5%.
the stuff rotometals sells is higher percentage and actually works better.
the shotshell world has moved on and up from steel, only the costs are higher which is what keeps steel in the game.
there is tungsten matrix, nice shot [which I believe is gone now] heavy shot,
TSS 10-11-13, and a couple of others that will out perform lead in 5 different directions.
all of them have the same down fall of price.
1 to 2$ per trigger pull is not going to gain any popularity with the shotgun world where shells are purchased and used by the flat.
as far as a straight bismuth-tin alloy being shoved down a rifle barrel?
I don't think so,, you'd have to find a third and maybe a fourth component, zinc and some copper might turn the trick? [powder coating would probably be a huge help]
Bismuth is really brittle it'd be real close to using antimony, only not toxic like antimony is.
the stuff rotometals sells is higher percentage and actually works better.
the shotshell world has moved on and up from steel, only the costs are higher which is what keeps steel in the game.
there is tungsten matrix, nice shot [which I believe is gone now] heavy shot,
TSS 10-11-13, and a couple of others that will out perform lead in 5 different directions.
all of them have the same down fall of price.
1 to 2$ per trigger pull is not going to gain any popularity with the shotgun world where shells are purchased and used by the flat.
as far as a straight bismuth-tin alloy being shoved down a rifle barrel?
I don't think so,, you'd have to find a third and maybe a fourth component, zinc and some copper might turn the trick? [powder coating would probably be a huge help]
Bismuth is really brittle it'd be real close to using antimony, only not toxic like antimony is.
Ian
Notorious member
This is pretty informative regarding copper additions to a particular Bi/Sn solder alloy: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d3fd/0561a540468b20f828652643165a9d83efd6.pdf
Allen, I'm afraid we have officially swerved your OT thread back on topic somehow...
Allen, I'm afraid we have officially swerved your OT thread back on topic somehow...
Ian
Notorious member
Studying the article more it appears that with an eutectic Bi/Sn ratio with 57% Bi, ANTIMOMY is the clear winner for increasing ductility and refining the grain structure to a nice, fine, even matrix. .5-1% Sb addition, not too tricky on the exact amount added within that range, gives up to a 40% increase in ductility. See the ternary phase diagram on the last page of the article for Bi/Sn/Sb. Melt point is about 300°F. I wonder how the Rotometals 88/12 alloy at 395°F melt point/19.6 BHN will react to one percent Sb. The Sb precipitates with Sb/Sn on the boundary of the Bi instead of forming Sb/Sn as a primary crystalline phase as it does with ternary lead alloy, so I think the Bi/Sn/Sb ternary can have the major constituents changed significantly from a eutectic ratio and still receive the benefit of ductility from the small Sb addition. The small Sb addition to the eutectic solder does raise the melt point some which would be a really good thing.
Comparing tensile strength to compressive strength is not really valid, but can be close. The eutectic solder with .5% Sb checked in around 80 MPa, which divided by acceleration due to gravity gives somewhere around 8 BHN. Rotometals claims 19.6 by boosting the Bi to 88%. Pure Bi is about 7-9 BHN depending on which source you check.
It think that if brittleness is the chief problem (after cost of course) of the Bi/Sn alloy, the antimony will take care of that easily.
Comparing tensile strength to compressive strength is not really valid, but can be close. The eutectic solder with .5% Sb checked in around 80 MPa, which divided by acceleration due to gravity gives somewhere around 8 BHN. Rotometals claims 19.6 by boosting the Bi to 88%. Pure Bi is about 7-9 BHN depending on which source you check.
It think that if brittleness is the chief problem (after cost of course) of the Bi/Sn alloy, the antimony will take care of that easily.
fiver
Well-Known Member
they allow bismuth-tin over water for duck hunting etc.
I doubt they could say a damn thing about using it to deer hunt with, it's already been approved by their legislature.
I'd make sure I had a certificate from the foundry [even if you altered the alloy] showing what it was, and let them scratch their asses over what to do about it.
I doubt they could say a damn thing about using it to deer hunt with, it's already been approved by their legislature.
I'd make sure I had a certificate from the foundry [even if you altered the alloy] showing what it was, and let them scratch their asses over what to do about it.
Ian
Notorious member
Well, we may have a solution, but it's going to be around $15/lb. Thing is, this is for HUNTING and not Steel Challenge or SASS tournaments, so in the end a couple hundred dollars' worth will go a long way. Probably can cast the stuff with a dedicated ladle, stainless-steel quart sauce pan, and a hot plate as a precaution against cross-contamination with lead residue in the event of a nasty legal battle.
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
OK--I would be on board for that. Absolutely. I like Lamar's advisement of "Assay documentation" being along for the ride as well. The question I would ask of the R&D folks--does this alloy tend to expand upon impact in a predictable manner? CA Fish & Game Code requires its large game bullets to have an expansion capability, which "sold" the State on the Barnes TSX bullets. If this alloy expands, I would say that things would be GOLDEN.
Truth to tell--the DFW guys I spoke to are not real jazzed about this whole non-toxic bullet bit. That non-peer-reviewed justification for the adoption of these regs is NOT RESPECTED outside of CA, due to its sourcing--a whack-job enviro-fascist boiler room operation calling itself the "Center For Biological Diversity" that has a tenuous connection to Stanford University in Palo Alto. CFBD wanted to halt all hunting with this "research", first in CA--later nationwide. Barnes Bullets utterly sunk their yacht. DFW thinks that a substantive legal challenge would make this nonsense disappear, because CA has no money to fight a battle in court over what is (in a Big Picture viewpoint) a very small matter.
Truth to tell--the DFW guys I spoke to are not real jazzed about this whole non-toxic bullet bit. That non-peer-reviewed justification for the adoption of these regs is NOT RESPECTED outside of CA, due to its sourcing--a whack-job enviro-fascist boiler room operation calling itself the "Center For Biological Diversity" that has a tenuous connection to Stanford University in Palo Alto. CFBD wanted to halt all hunting with this "research", first in CA--later nationwide. Barnes Bullets utterly sunk their yacht. DFW thinks that a substantive legal challenge would make this nonsense disappear, because CA has no money to fight a battle in court over what is (in a Big Picture viewpoint) a very small matter.
fiver
Well-Known Member
probably still better than 75 cent each bullets.
if the stuff is brittle and blows up on impact I can't think of anything better for sage rat shooting,,, and the price for 50 223 bullets ??
even if it's break even [or slightly more] my poor attitude towards authority says it's worth the hassle.
if the stuff is brittle and blows up on impact I can't think of anything better for sage rat shooting,,, and the price for 50 223 bullets ??
even if it's break even [or slightly more] my poor attitude towards authority says it's worth the hassle.
fiver
Well-Known Member
just as a back round on my it''ll break up idea is that I researched fragmenting bullets back when I was in the bullet business and Bismuth was on the top of my list for things to use.
airc at the time they were doing some sintered Bi. and steel/iron [don't remember 100%] bullets and the fragments could be picked up with a magnet and re swaged into shape.
airc at the time they were doing some sintered Bi. and steel/iron [don't remember 100%] bullets and the fragments could be picked up with a magnet and re swaged into shape.