Finally got a .40

[Pistolero]

Too good a deal to pass up. S&W M&P 40, full sized gun. LE surplus, essentially mint condition.
In original box, all three grip adapters, three 15 rd mags.....$305, no tax. $40 for shipping and FFL
transfer combined.
Haven't shot it yet, Apex sear on the way. Pretty decent trigger as it came, though.
And night sights. This model can take a thumb safety, and I have the parts. I prefer having
a thumb safety, esp when it is pretty much the ergo equivalent of a 1911 safety.

I had been dodging the cartridge for years, finally had too good a deal to pass up.

Bill

 

[Winelover]

I'm still dodging it, along with the 380 and 45ACP.

 

[Brad]

Lots of 40s out there. I see tons of brass for them on the ground. Fills my scrap bucket quickly.

Hell of a price. Will be interested to see what you can make it do.

 

[L Ross]

Due to the free brass issue, I wish I had a .40 S&W cylinder for my 38-40.

 

[Ian]

That was too good to pass up, even if it is a .40. I'm hanging onto mine (night sights, Apex trigger, backstraps, 2 mags, paddle holster and owb Kydex holster) only because nobody would give me back the $800 I go in it. Hope you don't hate yours as much as I do mine.

 

[JonB]

I know there ain't much love for it here, but I like the 40.
Good cheap plinking fun, which I guess can be said about the 9 as well.
currently, I only have one and it's a Hi-Point pistol, but in the past, I've had a Baby Eagle and a couple Taurus PT 24/7, as well as a Hi-Point Carbine. They were all fun to shoot. But I will also add, if and when I carry, it's a 38 revolver.

 

[Hawk]

My carry guns are all 40s. I've got one Beretta model 96, but the rest are various sizes of Glocks.
I've been real happy with the 40 and the Glocks. Very accurate guns, very easy to load for. A lot more power in my opinion than the nines and a lot more capacities than the 45. Seems like a win-win to me.

 

[fiver]

if all else fails 40 cases make pretty darn good 44 projectiles, they can also be persuaded to be 45 projectiles.

 

[popper]

I mostly shoot 40SW, not much of a performance difference from 45acp. Not as hard to load as 9mm. Kinda like my opinion of 223, my 30s will do anything I need.

 

[freebullet]

Lee summit gun broker has them for 249. It was tempting, but I just finished the not a glock 40.

M&P 40 $249

 

[RBHarter]

I really liked the XD40 I shot . It fit me well and had good proportions fully preventing any chance of slide bite .
A load that drove a 180 @ 960 fps out of a 2.75" barrel isn't anything to sneeze at . It's not 230 @ 940 but it's not 147 @ 900 either . The XD pulled back to within 3" at 20 yd for the double tap also . I always felt like it was about as good a split as you can get if the 45 platforms are too big and you want/need more than a 9mm in the same size package . Of course there's the capacity argument but I'm not going there based simply on I'd rather have 6 left than need 9 .

 

[CZ93X62]

I mostly shoot 40SW, not much of a performance difference from 45acp. Not as hard to load as 9mm. Kinda like my opinion of 223, my 30s will do anything I need.

That is a pretty good summation of the 40 Short & Weak. (Not-so-subtle 10mm enthusiast sarcasm here). It is a "9mm that behaves itself". Most 40s and 10s have reliably predictable bore/groove/throat dimensions IME, unlike the 9mm. Like the 9mm, pay attention to seating depth/overall length of completed cartridges--they can get REAL CREATIVE with chamber pressures if you crowd the powder space due to over-deep seating without a corresponding powder weight adjustment. And (again) like the 9mm--the 40 S&W/10mm often have insanely-fast rifling twist rates (1-10" or 4 turns/meter) that are not justified by the bullet lengths used in this cartridge. Slower-twist aftermarket barrels often enhance accuracy, esp. with castings.

We LIKE the 40 S&W at our house, and so do the daughters.

If my times spent in trauma centers and autopsy suites at work counts for anything......I'll go out on a limb and say that as far as street cred goes, the 40 S&W is every bit as good as the 45 ACP. Deputies still love the caliber, and it is overtaking the 45 ACP slowly as time goes on. It is that high-capacity magazine capability (over that of the 45s) that really sells the caliber to folks that have to spend their own money to equip themselves with something other than a revolver for uniform/duty use. The 9mm (largely due to the anemic loads we authorize) is relegated to the same status as the 38 Special snubguns--off duty or back-up roles. (All that said--the Glock 21 in 45 ACP is pretty darn popular, too. If Glock made their 45s and 10mms in the Model 19/23 compact format, the game would change radically).

The 40 S&W has its detractors, and their voices have been amplified in recent years. If the 40 has a fault, it is recoil--it backs off the bullet harder than the 45 does, and a lot harder than the 9mm does with the adulterated FBI sub-sonic JHPs on board. This trait will not pose issues for the members here, who are seasoned handgunners. A part of the trend toward lightening the 40 S&W bullet weights to the 135/150/165 grain weights has to do perceived recoil amelioration. I think that is a MISTAKE--the 40 S&W duplicates closely the ballistics of the old 38/40 WCF from a Colt single-action revolver with its 180 grain bullet running 900-950 FPS. (And, in another shameless prop for the 10mm, the 10mm from a pistol does a pretty good imitation of that same BP-level 38/40 WCF load fired from a Win '73 or Marlin '94. But I digress......)

For new/under-trained/poorly-trained/unmotivated police line personnel, the 40 S&W can be a problem. It is also a problem for the bean-counters that Rule The Earth at every agency I have had any dealings with as a trainer. Bean-counters are a consummate PITA, with their cost/benefits matrices that constantly argue against training time and ammunition costs. Bean-counters DESPISE the 40 S&W and 45 ACP, because they cost more than 9mm to buy and deputies require more re-shoots to get "qualified" with the heavier calibers. THIS is the under-lying reason that FBI and LE admin types have "re-discovered" the "advantages" of the 9mm over the 40 S&W or 45 ACP. It is telling that the people with the greatest influence over caliber selections are the ones least impacted by the ramifications of those choices. Shot-callers seldom get shot at.

Rant sequence completed, and we now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.

 

[Hawk]

the 40 S&W duplicates closely the ballistics of the old 38/40 WCF from a Colt single-action revolver with its 180 grain bullet running 900-950 FPS.

I've got a 10MM that I carry in the woods loaded with a 188 gr. PC'ed shallow hollow point that clocks about 1,285 fps., but the 40 gets the nod around town.
As for the 180 gr. bullet in the 40, Hornady No. 9 manual has several loads that list 1,050 fps and one that lists 1,100 fps with the 180 gr. XTP.
I get about 1,050FPS from my Glock Model 22 and the Hornady 180 gr. XTP, with no pressure signs using Longshot.
It is pretty snappy!
The 188 gr., 10MM at 1,300 fps is not as bad as a full house 44 Mag, but does get your attention..

 

[Ian]

If the 40 has a fault, it is recoil--it backs off the bullet harder than the 45 does, and a lot harder than the 9mm does with the adulterated FBI sub-sonic JHPs on board

There ya go. That is my principal complaint about the .40 S&W as well...snappy as hell, loud, and harder to shoot well for essentially the same energy on target. Fast and light, slow and heavy, or somewhere in the middle with increased recoil and increased round count...it's all about the same 450 lbt/ft with the 9/.40/.45 for a civilian who can choose their ammunition for maximum effectiveness, leaving a lot of good choices regarding a method of shipment. I choose slim, slow, and heavy, because of one essential factor: Conviction.

 

[CZ93X62]

Hawk--

The factory 180 grain JHP loads in the 40 S&W do leave some FPS on the table, for certain. I have never seriously pursued velocity max-out, my goal in 40 S&W has been to duplicate my carry loads for practice sequences and call it "Good".

Your 10mm loads run close to 10mm's "full potential". The 10mm as a carry caliber for goblins is a new venue for me, open only since Aug. 2017. I REALLY like the Winchester Silvertip's ballistics--175 grain JHP at 1250 FPS from the Glock 20 and about 1285 from a S&W 1006 and 1026. These run about 1190-1205 FPS from the Glock 29. (OK, that one is a bit of a handful. FUN, but still a handful).

 

[Ian]

The full-size Glock is also the most manageable for me with the .40 recoil-wise. Stupid grip angle is all wrong for this 1911 fanboi but the slide rides low and minimizes muzzle flip like all the Glock pistols.

Allright Bill, you've had all afternoon, tell us you got to shoot the M&P, I can't wait to hear your impressions.

 

[Pistolero]

I shot a few magazines today, around 45 rounds or so. The sights were shooting about 1.5" left at 20 yds. Really
usable as it came, runs like a train. Sights are good, trigger is good enough, but an Apex sear will be here in a
few days. Put the thumb safety on this PM, easy peasy---- but understand that there are two flavors,
one can take the safety or not, and the other has the Hillary hole lock and cannot take a thumb safety,
and even getting an entire new rear sear block assy for thumb safety....they warn that it will NOT go into a
Hillary hole frame. Now it is plastic and I imagine with enough hacking and filing one could make it
fit.....but. I paid extra for the one which easily takes the thumb safety, which basically works and
feels very similar to a 1911 thumb safety.

A friend bought one today for $260 +15 shipping, but with the Hillary hole and no easy route to a
thumb safety, which seems to devalue them slightly.

I bought a couple of boxes of Win White Box 180 JHP and it runs fine shoots to the sights. Good to go.
Three mags almost wipes out an entire box of ammo! fully loaded with three mags an one up
the spout and you have four rounds in the box left. Cool if you get into an "interesting" situation.

Not a CCW piece, but a pure tool, and will be used where it has some risk of theft, like in a car
and I can replace it without batting an eye, no twinges of sadness that would go with many
of my guns. It is a good, reliable tool. Not terribly pretty but very functional.
Looks to shoot about 2-3" at 20 yds, depending on the jerk behind the trigger.

Recoil is better than I had expected. About the same as a .45 ACP with the 180s and 165s. No intention
to go lighter, ever. Working gun. Pick it up and it will run, shoot to sights and has many
bullets essentially as effective as .45 ACP with proper ammo choices. Too big to carry daily,
my Commander will still be there. In the car, or similar, too fat for CCW on me except in winter.
I like the grip real well, trigger is acceptable. Not like my preferred 2 lb zero overtravel very short
reset 1911s, but still very workable for a tool. And 15 rd magazines, if things are getting a bit too
exciting.

Hard for me to say how much I despise the Glock 40s. Never shot a 9 Glock. Shot a .45 once and was
equally unimpressed. Glocks do not fit my hand, I depise their triggers and hate staring at the top
of the slide when I do a target line up. Grip angle all wrong for me, and all my dozens of other
designs work fine, just not the Glocks. And I hate the brass hitting me in the face, hat brim, and
even one behind my glasses with a ball cap on ....in two mags EVER shot in a Glock 40.

Did I ever mention that I don't much like Glocks?

Bill

 

[Pistolero]

Free bullet.....more info, please. Is that a physical store in Lee's Summit, MO?

 

[Ian]

I can't believe you like the broke-back-minnow crainkbait M&P trigger better than a Glock trigger. Serviceable, yes, but ptetty clunky compared to Glock or XD blade triggers IMO. I got one Apex sear and it's ok, the full trigger replacement I don't like though because you have to do the "Glock Drag" to catch the sear. I hear ya on seeing the top of the slide when you poke a Glock at the target, its a training issue but frankly I have no interest in unlearning 11⁰. 1911s suppress so much better than Glocks it isn't even funny. In hindsight, I really prefer the M&P in stock form to be used as a tool. Adding expensive parts to them (particularly the full replacement trigger) is kind of like putting lipstick on a pig. They're plenty good enough in stock form, reliable, durable, good magazines, cheap, just nothing special. Since you got this one cheap enough I guess some upgrades can make sense, as long as you like the way it turns out.

 

[Pistolero]

I do not notice the trigger hinging AT ALL. I look at it and watch it work and it is just hunky
dory with me. Can't really feel it happening on the two I have. Pretty much feels like a solid
trigger, as far as I am concerned, kinda blends seamlessly into the takeup. And my standard
of excellence is a 2 lb .025" take up 19ll trigger. That is what I ran in IPSC competition for
over 30 years.

For me the trigger is a total non-issue, I want and like the thumb safety which is pretty much
the same as a 1911. Grip is very good, far smaller than a Glock, I THINK the trigger reach is
shorter, but I have so little trigger time on Glocks that this may be wrong. And grip angle
is a gigantic problem for me with Glocks, literally insurmountable.- or more, UNWILLING to
do the work to surmount a gun design problem that doesn't exist in my dozens of other
guns, CZ75, BHP, Star B, Walther p38, even the Luger, while different doesn't seem as steep,
but I have about 20 round ever thru the Luger and it will never be even considered as a
working gun, it is a historic show piece, at least to me.

Different strokes....I will sign over all my rights, in perpetuity, to all Glocks if you would like.

But who knows, they MIGHT keep fixing it, generation after generation and finally get it right.



Bill