Finding a sweet spot between shaving bullets and dropping them into the case? 9mm

[JonB]

P&P,
Huh? I like the Lee collet style FCD, I think they are the Cat's meow.
I will admit, they are one of Lee's products that sometimes need a bit of "finish" work.
I have them in almost every caliber I load.
I had one custom made for 257Rx6.5 and that one arrived ready to go...worked so smooth, I suspect the Fellow's that do the custom work are a bit better at their craft, then most of the other machinists there...just my guess, because I can same the same thing about the 257Rx6.5 collet style Neck sizer die they custom made for me.

 

[Ian]

I'm squarely in the collet FCD camp as well, finding it a most useful and nearly essential tool for several cartridges, the .30-30 and .308 in particular with many others in use. The pistol caliber, carbide post-sizing crimp dies, not so much.



9mm handloading isn't rocket surgery.

Size the bullets to throat entrance diameter minus half a thousandth. Take your barrel out and drive an unsized bullet into the throat far enough to get a measurable impression of the end of the chamber and bevel at the throat entrance.

No more than .002" neck tension, regardless of expanding die type used. Experiment with expanding spuds until you achieve the correct ID of the brass.

Bullets need to be at least 13 bhn or they will get squished by the case when seated, even with only .002" interference. 9mm brass is very hard and tough to resist the high pressure of its design.

That's it.

 

[CZ93X62]

I only have one Lee FCD, in 25/20 WCF. It gets a bit of use with the short-trimmed cases I use with some bullets having long front drive bands that don't get along with the short abrupt throats in my rifles.

Ian makes a GREAT point about metal used for 9mm casting, and that same rule applies to 40 S&W and 10mm. Hard metal, soft lubes, and don't over-use the taper crimp die and compress your properly-sized bullet.

 

[462]

I don't load the .30-30 anymore, but used the Lee collet rifle factory crimp die when I did. Can't remember which, but one of the .38 Special or .35 Magnum jacket bullet's cannelure doesn't line up with the case mouth, and the collet crimp die works perfectly. A die that is able to apply a solid crimp anywhere on a jacketed or cast bullet is a very useful tool.

I knocked the carbide ring out of a .40 S&W carbide crimp die and use it as a range pick up bulge buster.

 

[fiver]

just slide an oversized bullet in a fired case and pop it into the barrel with a primer.
it will only go in about an inch at most, and is easily knocked back out with a Dowell.
you don't even need to remove the barrel that way.

 

[358156 hp]

Depending on the length of your bullet shank, there may also be another issue at play here. Since the 9mm case is tapered internally, many case mouth expanders are on the short side for depth. I got into a deep discussion on the other board several years back about the varying lengths of 9mm case expanders. We measured a number of different manufacturers expanders and found their dimensions all over the spectrum. I think the discussion started out over someone pulling a bullet and finding their bullet base seriously undersized so a number of us pulled out 9mm and 38/357 expanders out and measured them and took pictures of them. I think my Dillon 38/357 expander ended up being far more appropriate for 9mm than the Dillon 9mm piece was. This issue is exacerbated by carbide sizing dies that size cases too small to begin with, as appears to be their nature. We went deep down the rabbit hole on that one, but it was probably ten or more years ago.

 

[Brad]

I made a new expander for the Dillon for 9mm. I now get deeper expansion and to the dimension I want for my bullets. No more leading.

This works for he bullet I use, if I went to one with a longer shank it might not be deep enough.

My taper crimp just removes the flair, little actual crimp. Again, one I made

 

[Ian]

I am SO glad that the frustrations of not having the correct tools are forever behind me.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I made a new expander for the Dillon for 9mm. I now get deeper expansion and to the dimension I want for my bullets. No more leading.

This works for he bullet I use, if I went to one with a longer shank it might not be deep enough.

My taper crimp just removes the flair, little actual crimp. Again, one I made

As much as I love Dillon equipment - there is one place where Dillon falls short and that's the expander. (Dillon calls it a powder funnel)

I think Dillon powder funnels are made for jacketed bullets and it is the one place where Dillon could step up their game. The Dillon expanders are too small in diameter, create a bell like flare and don’t extend deep enough into the case for most bullets.

I obtained several custom powder funnels (powder through expanders) for my Dillon 550 and they are absolute game changers. I wish Dillon would address this issue and I’ve even communicated with them on this issue a few times. Fortunately, the Dillon powder funnel (expander) isn’t a complicated part, and it is a fairly easy fix to replace the Dillon expander with a custom-made expander.

If you load cast bullets on a Dillon machine, going to a custom expander is a very productive upgrade.

 

[Brad]

One of the larger problems we face at times with cast is using equipment design for use with jacketed.
The 9mm really is a worst case scenario- jacketed are usually .355 or .356 yet many of use use a .358 bullet. Our putty like cast bullets just don’t like those extra few thou of tension.

My Dillon has numerous home made powder dies for exactly the reason mentioned by P&P. The 9 mm, and 32 H&R saw the most improvement.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm squarely in the collet FCD camp as well, finding it a most useful and nearly essential tool for several cartridges, the .30-30 and .308 in particular with many others in use. The pistol caliber, carbide post-sizing crimp dies, not so much.



9mm handloading isn't rocket surgery.

Size the bullets to throat entrance diameter minus half a thousandth. Take your barrel out and drive an unsized bullet into the throat far enough to get a measurable impression of the end of the chamber and bevel at the throat entrance.

No more than .002" neck tension, regardless of expanding die type used. Experiment with expanding spuds until you achieve the correct ID of the brass.

Bullets need to be at least 13 bhn or they will get squished by the case when seated, even with only .002" interference. 9mm brass is very hard and tough to resist the high pressure of its design.

That's it.

We're not in agreement about the Lee FCD but reasonable people can disagree and life goes on.

We ARE in agreement about loading 9mm Luger cartridges. It ain't Rocket Surgery
The right size expander, the correct alloy, some basic reloading rules and everything works just fine.
The 9mm is a high pressure cartridge and is a bit more demanding than other cartridges but it's not THAT difficult to get good results.

 

[fiver]

if you treat it more like a 45 acp and not a rocket launcher things go a lot easier too.
it doesn't take 1100 fps to make a hole in some paper and chip board at 25yds.

 

[CZ93X62]

if you treat it more like a 45 acp and not a rocket launcher things go a lot easier too.
it doesn't take 1100 fps to make a hole in some paper and chip board at 25yds.

True that. You have NO IDEA how it scars my soul to post that, though.

 

[fiver]

if it were a rifle I'd be saying the same thing... LOL

I'm kind of a weirdo when it comes to recoil.
I can shoot 5-600 shot shell rounds in a days time no problem [then do it again tomorrow] 20 jacketed 308 type rifle rounds is a maybe,,, depending on the rifle.

big bore heavy weight handgun rounds? bring it on [you know stuff like 350grainers in the 445 on top of as much powder as will fit]
but then I gotta go all the way down to 38 special target pop type loads to enjoy them again.

 

[Brad]

I usually load something like 5 gr of Power Pistol under a 124 gr cast in my CZ 75. Shot a few yesterday with some 120 gr copper plated Speer bullets I got from Paul. Use a bit more powder, around 5.5 gr I beleive. Holy shit! The increase in flash and crash was intense. Not a good indoor load.

 

[Ian]

You ought to try PP in a 2" 686 sometime....

 

[Brad]

Yikes!

I like how the stuff shoots, but damn it, you can tell it lacks flash suppressants.

 

[CZ93X62]

I don't keep my biases as a secret, and most of my opinions are pretty strong. Here I go......

The 9mm Parabellum was conceived in Europe to run a 123-125 grain bullet at 1250 FPS from pistol barrels 4"-5" long. I have shot a whole lot of RWS and GECO pistol ammo from barrels of those lengths and many steps in between, and that 1" of lost barrel length in a S&W Model 459 clocks in the 1210-1215 FPS bracket, while the Springfield's 5" tube only conjures up another 40-50 FPS. The 9mm as loaded in Europe is VERY DARN EFFICIENT.

This power level is what all of my 9mm pistols are run at. My 9mm pistols have one primary function in my world--to stop goblins. I practice with duplicators of what loads I carry (Speer Lawman 124 GD +P). Once in a while they tag along on a varmint hunt, but most of my 9mm usage involves business trips.

American ammo makers have never been comfortable with the 9mm cartridge. They significantly down-load it from its true potential, and the only useful defensive loads are listed as either "+P" or "+P+". That is ludicrous. All of our M9 ammo is loaded to NATO STANAG specs, which impart 1250 FPS to a 123-125 grain bullet. Combine a NATO loading with a controlled-expansion 124 grain bullet, and you have a winner--I'll carry that in harm's way. If you want a magazine-fed 38 Special, carry the USA-made softball 9mm loads. If you can't manage or locate full-tilt 9mm loads, a 40 S&W or 45 ACP might be a better choice. MOST USA-MADE 9MM AMMO IS %^%#!

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The American history of the 9mm is interesting. The cartridge certainly was known in the U.S.A. from a time near its birth, but it was not widely accepted in the U.S. for much of its life. There is a lot of speculation for the shunning of the 9mm Luger but “it wasn’t made here” was probably a big factor.

I totally agree the 9mm Luger was designed from the start to operate with a 115-125 grain bullet and near maximum allowable pressure. The Europeans understood that fact and the Americans danced around it for decades.

Although the S&W Model 39 was introduced in the mid 1950’s and there were huge numbers of surplus 9mm pistols in the U.S.A. after WWII, the cartridge just didn’t enjoy widespread U.S. acceptance until the Wondernine era appeared in the late 1970’s. And even then, the typical American loading for the cartridge handicapped it.

When loaded with a modern hollowpoint bullet, of the correct weight and delivered at the appropriate velocity, the 9mm Luger is a formidable cartridge.

 

[CZ93X62]

My shop rolled out autopistols in mid-1987. 45 ACP and 9mm were the flavors, SIG-Sauer, Beretta, and S&W were the makers, and Winchester Silvertips were the ammunitions authorized. 45 ACP ran a 185 grain HP at 1000 FPS, the 9mm ran a 115 grain HP at 1200 FPS from my S&W 459. That was pretty close to the European performance level, so life was relatively good at work after almost 10 years of the 38 Special's sole usage as felon repellent.

FBI Miami took place some months prior to my shop's addition of the bottom-feeders, and after much gnashing of teeth and covering of backsides FBI lays the blame for the outcome of that debacle at the feet of the 9mm Winchester Silvertip ammunition being used by the agents using 9mm pistols. That is unmitigated pasture muffins. The agents did not place hits on determined predators, but since the FBI is considered The Oracle At Delphi For All Things Law Enforcement, there was no way on earth FBI would present the unvarnished truth of the matter. Most of us (LE and citizen) have noted similar poetic renditions of fact from FBI in the succeeding years following Miami, but I am getting far afield here. They get some stuff right, but you need new clean filter elements to assess each new finding one at a time.

Many white lab coats and lots of ballistic gelatin were utilized to come up with The New And Improved 9mm FBI Recommendation a few years later, the much-touted Sub-Sonic JHP Load. It features a 147 grain JHP at about 950 FPS from service-length 9mm pistol barrels. It is as a practical matter a self-loading 38 Special. One step forward, three steps back. I cobbled up some duplicator practice loads from Midway-sourced Winchester bullets just like those used in the issue ammo, and seated them atop 4.1 grains of WW-231 in the S&W 459 and the SIG P-226. That 250 rounds went with me on some quail and varmint hunts in the desert that Fall and Winter (1989-90). In short, jackrabbits almost always required a follow-up/finishing shot. Silvertip loads and their imitators did not. "Boyos, those are the rounds you carry at work in 9mm!" Yes, the campfire discussions were right interesting that season. Most of the guys and gals that hunted with me that year were range folk and gun cranks, and the upshot of our in-field testing was a voluntary relegation of the 9mm among our field troops to off-duty usage or outright removal from carry rotation. 45s ruled the earth, until 1994 when the 40 S&W and the Glocks were added to the lineup. The story does have a happy ending. I will also add, semi-conspiratorially, that the explosion on scene of the 40 S&W and its rapid proliferation was contemporaneous with that roll-out of FBI's sub-sonic sub-effective sub-lethal 9mm round. That phenomenon didn't happen in a vacuum, no sir.

In summary, choose your 9mm ammo carefully, and tune out most of what FBI says about anything. If you pay attention to that drivel-stream without filters you'll come to work with your pants on backwards and your daughters will marry progressive metrobois with skinny jeans, earrings and tongue piercings. You'll know when you turn on your shop TV and "The View" is streaming all day that it's time for an intervention. Just call me.