First Shots In The Group

[35 shooter]

This thread may have fit well in the cast bullet shooting and testing forum, but as i believe it has a lot to do with lube performance i put here. Feel free to move it if need be.

Getting that first all important first shot in the group from a cold clean or cold fouled bbl. almost made me give up on cast bullet shooting in rifles before i even got started good about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago.
For me it was a very frustrating endeavor and i have seen through reading posts and research, it seems to be a pretty common problem for many.

I would like to hear from others here how they go about achieving that very end. I posted a thread like this on another forum once for one to get feed back on different techniques and two, hoping it would help someone else that's having a problem with it.

I started with commercial lubes and nothing seemed to work for the first shots except to foul the bbl. before shooting groups. Fine for targets, but not so good for hunting. I tried leaving the bbl. fouled, but first shots from a cold bbl. still weren't in the group.

I found my answer when i started making my own lube. The first i tried was Fiver's Simple lube. I also started swabbing my bbl. after shooting with atf oil and then one dry patch through the bore before shooting again the next range trip and things began to come together.
With the atf oil trick Simple lube would put my first shot 1 to 2" high @ 100 yds. "centered" from a cold clean bbl. No problem for big game hunting at all with the plus of having a bit of "yonder" on that first shot.
The important thing was that first shot was ALWAYS centered just above the group...no wandering around with it. I finally went hunting with cast bullets with total confidence!!

Next try was Ben's Red lube. Since atf oil was in the recipe i would swab the bore after shooting with 1 wet patch of atf oil. Next range trip i would run 1 dry patch through the bore before shooting and suddenly all my "first" shots were in the group...every time!

Lately i've been tumble lubing with 3 light coats of BLL lube alone using the same atf oil trick for cleaning, followed by 1 dry patch before shooting and once again "all" first shots are in the group for me.
Also used BLL as an overcoat on top of Ben's Red with the same results.

The "kicker" for me has come from leaving the bbl fouled after shooting with BLL (no atf oil or cleaning at all) and 3 range trips later, all of my first shots from a cold fouled bbl. were in the group.
I live in a high humidity area so i will continue to use the atf in the bore for rust protection. Still it's nice to find a lube that works either way. No other tumble lube mixture has given me that kind of performance before. This lube is going hunting with me this year.

I realize no one thing will probably work in every rifle, but these are the things that have worked for me.
I would like to hear what works for YOU as it may very well help someone struggling with this very thing.

 

[Ian]

The factor in question is something that Eutectic from Castboolits identified and termed Consistency Of Residuals Encountered, or CORE for short. Making a consistent, repeatable runway for the bullet to ride down = consistent internal ballistics, which = consistent external ballistics assuming all other necessities have been properly attended by the handloader.

Long story short, my solution to the problem was finding a bullet lube that didn't throw the first shot, and not cleaning my rifle bores.

I've experimented with bore pre-treatments for guns that I feel need to be cleaned and oiled before being put away, and Dexron III ATF has performed pretty well as a pre-treatment to put the first shot on target. Also, after cleaning and just prior to a hunt, a little of the bullet lube being used can be smeared on a patch and run through the bore a time or two, followed by one dry patch. Not all lubes respond well to this, but Felix lube, LBT Blue, and SL-68.0 all do. Those three also do well on the next cold shot (weeks or months later) if the bore is simply left alone.

 

[Winelover]

The fly in the ointment for me isn't the choice of lube but rather ambient temperature and or powder selection. Here in Arkansas, opening day temperatures could range the in the mid 70's or low 30's. I will test my "deer load" at those temperature extremes and switch powders, if necessary. I am most concerned where the first shot falls from a cold barrel and it's repeatability. I will sacrifice group size, though it's nice if the second and third shot are relatively close. After all, it usually only takes one. BTW, I rarely clean barrels that cast is shot, from.

 

[JWFilips]

Again, No expert here, but I did ask this question earlier this Summer. After the answers I got….. I just stopped cleaning my rifles!
Now when I go to the range I shoot my first group and the first shot is a little wider then the next 9 but still look like a group.
Before that when I cleaned my barrels I wild have to fire up to 10 shots for it to settle down. My .243 was the worst offender but then again those bullets are moving near 2000fps
My 8 mm GEW 98 turned into a pussy cat. It became the most stabile. Recently I did something wrong and picked up some leading in the first 4 " of it's barrel so I had to clean it for the first time in maybe 650 rounds.
I just ran a few very tight fitting patches of ATF though it and worked the bad area, back & forth a bit…..Then I needed 6 shots to get it back on track.
That was 2 sessions ago. This weekend it went back to the first shot being just out of the main group
So not cleaning the barrels let me go from seeing the first shots jumping on the target to the first shot moving out of group.
Worked for me

 

[Ian]

Good point, John. I learned a lot from WW748: For one thing, it was the powder I was using when I first got precise enough with my loading and shooting to notice significant lot-to-lot variances. The other thing is it almost needed a magnum primer in below-freezing weather to light the powder consistently.

 

[Barn]

I am no expert either. However my experience shows no first shot fliers with 6661 or Ben's Red or SL-68.1 or SL.68B.1 or SL-68B.2. I do not precondition my bores.

 

[JWFilips]

I only use Ben's Red & BLL

 

[yodogsandman]

This is an interesting thread! I don't pre-treat my bores and would rather not clean between range trips for cast bullet shooting either. For jacketed, I use a copper solvent to clean up each and every time out.

Ben's Red and Ben's Liquid Lube shoot into the group. Just started using 2500+ and that seems to stay in the group. too.

I'm still wondering why BLL doesn't purge Alox sporadically but, I haven't seen it.

 

[35 shooter]

This is an interesting thread! I don't pre-treat my bores and would rather not clean between range trips for cast bullet shooting either. For jacketed, I use a copper solvent to clean up each and every time out.

Ben's Red and Ben's Liquid Lube shoot into the group. Just started using 2500+ and that seems to stay in the group. too.

I'm still wondering why BLL doesn't purge Alox sporadically but, I haven't seen it.

Yodog all i know is "trust Ben to fix things" lol. Something in the Johnson's Liquid wax flat makes Alox behave. I have become a tumble lube junkie since trying BLL!

 

[Ian]

Wax makes Na and Li stearate behave, too. Some things just work in combinations that don't otherwise work.

 

[yodogsandman]

Think BLL will hold up in cold weather shooting too? I didn't think Alox could behave!

Now, I'm wondering that if the soaps were reduced in "the quest" because of oxidation and Alox prevents it, if it could be substituted, say 50/50 in place of half the soap. Sorry, just rambling...

 

[35 shooter]

Think BLL will hold up in cold weather shooting too? I didn't think Alox could behave!

Now, I'm wondering that if the soaps were reduced in "the quest" because of oxidation and Alox prevents it, if it could be substituted, say 50/50 in place of half the soap. Sorry, just rambling...

I'd bet good money on BLL in the cold. Remember Ben tested it for about 2 years before he "unvailed" it.
It can get pretty darn cold in his area. Of course i know it gets much colder where you live.
It sure has passed the heat test here.

 

[Ian]

Alox can behave. It's a calcium soap grease which is a natural result of the minerals in crude oil remaining with the stuff that just won't distill anymore and is left in the bottom of the fraction towers. It's right above asphalt on the vacuum distillation scale. The way to make metal soaps behave is to combine them with wax. At a certain pressure and velocity, the metal soaps de-gel and the oils leave them. Micro-crystalline wax is good at keeping metal soaps and oils together (that's why 7% micro wax was mixed with Alox 350 to make the Alox 2138F that composed half of the classic NRA 50/50 formula), but works better with Li and Na soaps than Ca. I suspect the polymer matrix in the liquid "wax" keeps the Ca in the LLA from dropping out and baking on the barrel, or appears to.

 

[yodogsandman]

35 shooter, You'd have to find someone else to take that bet, not me! There's no reason to believe BLL would act any differently. I'll get back to testing it some more after I finish some other projects. I do plan to shoot it in the 1911... at least to start me out. I've learned that I can shoot them a lot faster than to size and lube them.

It's a few degrees cooler in the winter here but, I do believe that the cold down there has more moisture in the air and really feels colder than it is.

Ian, Thanks for that, it just takes me awhile to digest it. Just have to stop chewing on it first... So, alox works fairly well as a lube with beeswax but, sticks to the bore and pukes itself out when it builds up (much like too much Na soap). The "polymer matrix" of liquid "wax" seems to prevent it. Would micro crystalline waxes used in SL lubes (180) provide that same prevention, as long as the alox also was used in small enough percentages that the micro waxes weren't over come by it? I'm guess I'm thinking along the lines of the "blended" waxes and now about "blended" soaps. That BLL sure seems to work real well at both pistol and rifle velocities. Runs clean, too!

 

[Ian]

We beat on the "multi-stearate" grease base pretty hard over on CB, there are some complications with the various metal soaps getting along (mostly NOT getting along), but some combinations are known in the lubricating industry to work well. I'm not sure there really is much benefit in bullet lube, I was barking up the non-thixotropic tree (meaning doesn't get thin when worked) and wanted to try a Na/Ca/Mg stearate combo per a 1940's patent I dug up which was purported to be 100% shear-stable, but the truth is we NEED a thixotropic lube in all aspects (waxes, oils, and soap all included) so I'm less convinced that multi-metal soaps are the ticket. The only thing that lingers in my mind is the Na/Li soap combination, tricky to do right and not have them dissolve each other's matrix in solution, but has shown the strengths of each in use. Na stearate is very tough, stringy, self-cleaning in a bore, and takes a lot of heat. Li stearate acts a little bit as an EP lubricant itself (unlike Na) and has some high-velocity advantages in gluing the Na strands together. The Na keeps Li matrix from going slack and letting the lube turn to goose chit in hot weather or in a really hot gun that spits a lot of rapid-fire. The trick is to use plain Na and Li stearates, not 12-hydroxystearates or complexes (complexes are mixed straight stearates and 12-hydroxystearates which compliment each other very much like tin and antimony in lead solutions do). When complexed and introduced in various combinations, Na and Li stearates can become incompatible and defeat each other's thickening and oil-retention qualities. Some combos work, some don't, it's an inexact science even in tribology because there are so many other factors involved like oils and additives that can affect stearate compatibility.

 

[Ian]

One thing you NEVER want to do is use any lube containing Al stearate (like most H1 greases) in a gun that's been seasoned with anything containing Alox. The reaction between the two, in the presence of the heat of shooting and powder residue, will make a mess of your bore that has to be experienced to be fully appreciated.

 

[Grump]

Isn't the Al stearate used in many "waterproof" greases? My Dad warned me to fully CLEAN all grease from bearings before re-packing, to avoid a wrong grease combo = sludge that loses lubricity problem.

So reading here about some of the *other* metals in that periodic column playing nicely in the soaps game is a bit of a surprise. But having read a few things here and there about quantum chemistry and odd things that happen on the uber-microscopic level, it now kinda makes sense that not every metal behaves the same as others with the same type of outer electron shell (do they still call it "valence"??). Just like the Snipers Hide guys say "believe the bullet", I also "believe the mix" and what you guys have personally observed in more experimentation (collectively and perhaps individually for a few!) than I have powder and primers to replicate.

 

[fiver]

no that's mot likely calcium stearate.
aluminum stearate acts differently I had issues with it in the heat.

and Ian is for sure correct on the mess CA st and AL st can create when you add in graphite.
adding in sodium stearate creates a coating in the barrel you have to pretty much scrape out to remove.