Fit is King - A Practical Journey

L Ross

Well-Known Member
No experience with .22's @ 100 yd. The matches I mentioned in post #77 were always fired @ 50 yd. Btw, my heavy bbl'ed Marlin can put 5 or more fouling shots into a nickel (or smaller) group at 50 yd., but those for record had to be smaller; i.e., one (or two!) in the X and one in the 10-ring for two 10-shot targets. It's an accurate rifle, but a bit too short for off hand shooting.
Yeah speaking of short, I see a disturbing trend in .22's. Nice heavy barreled guns, good triggers and great after market triggers available, scopes that are just short of incredible. Yet they saddle these fine rifles with truncated 16.5 to 18.5 inch barrels. They look wrong, and they hang wrong. Of course I suppose the idea is you are to hang a suppressor on them and/or a bipod. Yikes, a bipod? The only good thing about the muzzle being threaded is my smith friend turned me a 6" extension for the muzzle of my Bergara and now it looks and hangs like a rifle should.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
About Christmas time I went to a shoot borrowed a rifle and proved out beyond any doubt that my once method of shoot the groups and subtract an inch guide is still pretty much accurate . The rifle was deliberately accurate it was all me as an operator that left a little lacking . The guy that won shot five and cut the left petal and stem off the ace of clubs . I drew the ace of hearts and managed to hit the card all 5 times ......the Lucky Strike circle would have covered them easy but I was only in the top 15 of 20 or so .
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Maven, what is the Marlin you speak of? Back in the 90's they had a target model that was quite accurate out of the box with a decent trigger and far better stock than any Marlin I'd ever seen. Only saw and got to shoot the one.
 

Maven

Well-Known Member
Sorry to be late in responding, Brett, but you're right my Marlin is from the late 1980's - early 90's. However, it has a black "plastic" stock and has had the trigger worked on bu Bill Monell, a local gunsmith who specialized in .22BR rifles. He was an excellent shot to boot, often shooting 23 or 24X in the unlimited class (where the target has 25 light green bullseyes with X's the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen). Unfortunately, I do not know the model number, but I purchased it from Monell years ago. He also suggested I fill the stock with lead shot for greater stability. Moreover, it wears a BSA 3 x 7 air rifle scope, which rarely needs adjusting. As nice as it is off the bags, it is far too short for me to shoot offhand (which I suck at!).
 

Maven

Well-Known Member
One further thought about CB fit (Today is Thursday and SWMBO allows me to have thoughts today...LOL!): Over the years there have bee some very successful tapered CB designs, e.g. Eagan's MX-30's, Saeco #315's and clones, and Lyman's original #311644's. Maybe a tapered CB is very clearly on the path to CB enlightenment? What do you think?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
they chase the throat and take up the rifling gently with room for the displaced metal to move around.
they work very well under the right conditions.
for instance the 644 will outpace a jacketed bullet in stuff like my 325 and 340, doesn't work so much in the model 94, but it paper patches nicely in the girls 7.7 Jap.
it's a shape/shape thing.
 

Maven

Well-Known Member
About tapered designs (I'd almost forgotten this): Long ago, Ed Wosika (of the Hanned Line) offered a tapering die that was specific to your rifle. Via lengthy instructions, you submitted a slug or two to him and he cut a die that allowed you to taper a CB to fit your rifle's chamber more or less perfectly. Said die would also flatten the gas check or bullet base if you chose to omit the GC. Although not inexpensive, it turned so-so CB's (Lee C-309-180R and Lyman #311291) into tack drivers in my rifle. Both of those were too small for my .30-06, btw. The die also allowed the option of keeping the original nose profile or adding a small meplat via a replaceable nose punch.

More recently I've been using (read "making extra work for myself") the Hanned Die to taper the Lee group buy 150gr. TL CB in an effort to gain more consistent grouping. I know the extra work defeats the purpose of the TL design (cast, lube, shoot), but the results are better; i.e., the groups are tighter even for unweighed CB's, and thus worth the extra effort.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
This thread was mentioned by Ian in another post about fit in a 6.5 IIRC. We need to keep this one going. GOOD STUFF herein!!!
 
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Missionary

Well-Known Member
In reply to Maven's excellent post #87...
Ned Roberts fine little book on the Muzzleloading Rifle (1940) has a chapter about how much more accurate are cast bullets after they are swagged in a die specific to that rifle's barrel.
I recon if we all went that route numerous cast bullet mold cutters would be out of production.
 
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Dimner

Named Man
I have not forgotten about this. I just got busy with life and kid stuff before I can take the next step in the journey. That will be chamber dimensions via pound casting. More to come!
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
Pt 1: The Basics:

A - Fit is what now? King?


So let's define Fit is King a little better.

Broadly, fit is the relationship of measurements between the bullet itself and anything that touches or will touch it inside of the gun, with the emphasis being on tolerance reduction and exact replication or the the repeatability of our desired fit each time a round is loaded. Keep in mind that regardless of method by which the bullet is fit to the gun, the end goal of any specific mechanical fit technique is starting the bullet absolutely straight into the barrel so that it flies true when it comes out of the muzzle.

Bullet fit can be broken down into two categories: Static Fit which is how the bullet shape relates to the firearm at the moment it is about to be fired, and Dynamic Fit which is the moving relationship between the contacting surfaces of the bullet and the inside of the barrel, from chamber to muzzle."

And when I say let's, what I really mean is for the love of god, someone with better writing skills can I please look at your paper? Teacher isn't looking. Just this once? Please? Yeah, just that first paragraph that explains Fit is King briefly. Yeah the one that uses all them smarty word things
Thanks IAN!
Draft Definition - Commonly refers to the static fit of a bullet. The fit of the bullet anytime and upto the moment before the primer is lit. A bullet is considered to have a good fit when, under specific conditions, the bullet and firearm work together to achieve optimal results in a repeatable manner. The desired results are up to the user to determine, just as the method of achieving a good fit is upto the user.

.

B - Terminology, definitions, synonyms
  • Bullet Profiles(ogive):
    • Two diameter
      • Also known as Barlow design
    • Tapered
  • Throat - area of the chamber that spans from the end of the cartridge neck up to the rifling lands. Consists of:
    • Freebore - Beginning area of the throat that matches the diameter of the rifling grooves. This helps a bullet to fit without interference.
    • Leade - Transitional area that tapers from the freebore to the rifling lands
    • ChamberIllustrationUpdate.png
  • Static Fit - which is how the bullet shape relates to the firearm at the moment it is about to be fired
  • Dynamic Fit - the moving (ie: after primer is ignited) relationship between the contacting surfaces of the bullet and the inside of the barrel. It ceases to matter once the bullet has departed the muzzle
  • Pound Cast - A form of chamber casting using a fireformed case and a lead slug seated in the neck of the cartridge. A rod is then inserted into the muzzle end of the firearm and tapped against the lead slug. The slug expands to the dimensions of the throat and possibly bore, providing a physical method to determine chamber measurements.
  • Sulphur Cast - A form of chamber casting where flower of sulphur is melted and poured into a chamber that is plugged a few inches past the throat. When cooled, the casting can be removed and used to determine chamber measurements.
  • Groove Diameter - a value of the firearm's barrel measured from groove to groove. Most often measured from a chamber casting or barrel slugging.
  • Throat Wear -
  • Launch - The period of internal ballistics and where we find most of our challenges with cast bullet accuracy. This is also the part we can directly control if we know what to do and what to manipulate. The first half inch of the launch is where most of the bad stuff happens to our bullets.
Will put these in alphabetical order at a later date when this list is expanded more.



C - The system ( better term?)

What I'm thinking here for the system is a overview of how the chamber, brass, bullet, freebore, leade and bore all live together and for lack of a better term make up a system that will only work optimally when all are considered, known and accounted for. I figure this section may have quite a few diagrams and may be some of the most technical areas in this ... uhh. ... article?
  • Throat types
The Impact of Throat Wear
It is also important to understand throat wear. A throat that starts out with an abrupt angle from chamber end into the parallel freebore, then has an abrupt leade to the tops of the lands, will eventually wear into a trumpet-bell shape. Most rifles wear to about the same throat form eventually, no matter how they start out. If you shoot only mild loads with pistol/shotgun powder you may not ever wear the original form enough to measure, but high-powered rifles that see enough high-pressure loads using rifle powders (regardless of projectile type) are going to wear over time and just like when using jacketed bullets and "chasing the throat" as it wears, STATIC fit is sometimes a moving target.​

D - Fitting Methods - A brief description
  • Breech seating
  • Bore & Groove
    • Typically done with Barlow design, "two diameter" bullets
  • Revolver Cylinder Approach
  • Self-aligning
    • Uses varying degrees of jump
  • Morse Taper
    • Todo: Digest post #8
  • Bump Fit
  • The Paradox
  • The Misfit - a deliberate, careful bullet/throat mismatch
    • Examples:
      • stepped bullet in a cone throat such as a using a multi-band, step-tapered Loverin bullet
      • cone bullet in a stepped throat

Way down the road reminder for myself. Practical examples using my Sav24, Tikka T3, CBAR15, and 81BB

BTW... is there a size limit to a single post?

Pt 2 - Your Actual System - Define It:
Now that we have defined the basics and discussed abstracts, the real first work to achieve optimal static fit will be for the user to create a practical definition of the system that be used. We will take actual measurements of the chamber, throat and bore as well as consider the cartridge specifications to determine any limitations. Those are the fixed variables. That is an oxymoron, kinda eh? However, those variables are still set in stone when working with a specific cartridge and firearm. Only mechanical alteration or choosing a new firearm will change those variables. What we also need to define are the ?soft? variables that also have a significant impact on the system. This includes, desired velocity, lubrication method, preferred bullet weight, and end use for the load (hunting, paper punching, long distance, silhouette, etc). Lastly, we need to consider our dynamic variables: alloy composition, bullet profile, bullet/nose sizing, case preparation, powder burn rate this is for dynamic fit, etc. These variables are going to be freely altered to arrive at our optimal static fit.​
To the group...please help. Fixed variables, soft variables, dynamic variables. Better terms are out there, any thoughts?
A - The Chamber Cast
B - Cartridge & Firearm Considerations
  • Throat Type
  • Case Capacity
  • Cartridge Loading Method
    • Single Shot
    • Lever
    • Bolt Action
    • Semi-auto
    • Revolver
C - User Goals
  • Desired Velocity
  • Lubrication
  • Bullet Weight
  • End Use
D - Dynamic Variable
  • Bullet Profile
  • Alloy Compisition
  • Bullet Sizing
    • Driving Bands
    • Nose
  • Case preparation
  • Bullet Seating Length
    • Jump
    • Touch Lands
    • Jamb
Todo: Need to fit this example in here somewhere. Popper, post #15, started with 31-165B and altered to 31-165C to account for an alternate lubrication method.​
My approach is simple and has achieved excellent results for me.I don't do pound cast ,to much work and no fun. because most of my cast bullet shooting is done with US Mil surps whos' bores are either worn or just milled all over the place I have sizing dies from .309 up to ,315. when i get a new mold I start with some of a normal size , say .311, 5 is enough then work my way up on the sizing no need to worry about powder load, seating depth etc. I then fire them . one group will be better than all the rest, the groups may range from 6" to a foot but one will be better , that's the one I will use. then,I will start fooling with powder seating, etc..it's a lot more fun shooting than pounding leadP.S. With comercial rifles i will start with nonrmal bore size.
 
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Mainiac

Well-Known Member
3,4 pages back,,fiver mentioned a 375 marlin.
I spent years looking for one.i think it may be the most accurate levergun i ever owned.i shoot that big 375448(cant remember!!),,280 grains or so.
V-133 powder,kicks like hell,but wont that dog hunt!!!!
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
In reply to Maven's excellent post #87...
Ned Roberts fine little book on the Muzzleloading Rifle (1940) has a chapter about how much more accurate are cast bullets after they are swagged in a die specific to that rifle's barrel.
I recon if we all went that route numerous cast bullet mold cutters would be out of production.
Ned Roberts books should be required reading for anyone with an interest in firearms!!!
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
the 448 is plain base and the 449 is gas check.
i use the 449 and can run it up till it hurts.
my buddy uses the 448 in his Marlin C.B. 38-55 on top of 9.5grs. of unique and it's a pussy cat.
shoots flatter over about 150 yds. than you'd think too.

i am still using AA-1680 , but have some new [yeah new old stock] winchester cases i'm going to work with some AA-2230 to try and settle things down a smidge without losing too much speed.
i still need to make up some of those 300gr. P/B bullets i have a mold for, i made some before but i'll be damned if i can find them.
the mold is an old Ideal with 2 different bullets cut into it.
not even sure where that mold is right now [which is unusual for me]
 

Mainiac

Well-Known Member
the 448 is plain base and the 449 is gas check.
i use the 449 and can run it up till it hurts.
my buddy uses the 448 in his Marlin C.B. 38-55 on top of 9.5grs. of unique and it's a pussy cat.
shoots flatter over about 150 yds. than you'd think too.

i am still using AA-1680 , but have some new [yeah new old stock] winchester cases i'm going to work with some AA-2230 to try and settle things down a smidge without losing too much speed.
i still need to make up some of those 300gr. P/B bullets i have a mold for, i made some before but i'll be damned if i can find them.
the mold is an old Ideal with 2 different bullets cut into it.
not even sure where that mold is right now [which is unusual for me]
449 is what i meant i guess.re7,v130,and v133 all shoot super.my marlin loves wide open,my shoulder and cheek dont love it though.
Always thought id like to bust a moose with this gun,but havent.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
1680 down loads pretty well.
just remember it's a ball type powder so doesn't fill the case very much.
i done a start load of 22grs. in my 0-6 and was pretty happy with it [@1850 fps. or so]