For those new to alloying tin and lead

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Lot of guys helped me here so thought this would be a good place to post this.
Facts

1 Alloying is always done by weight not volume.
2 Because an ingot says 1 pound does not mean it weighs a pound.
3 Pewter, 95 percent tin solder, and Tin are pretty much the same thing as far as the bullet caster is concerned.

IMO, which had been formed with the help of the great fellows here and actual experience.

1pound Tin to 30 pound Lead is a good alloy to start with.
PS.1 to 30 gives you 31 lb.
I have made this in my lee pot with clean ingot. 15 lbs. of lead with 1/2 lbs.by weight of tin ingot added.

1 It can be added to Range scrap to make it fill out a mould better.
2 It can be added to COWW to make it fill out better, Make it a little tougher, soften it or harden it depending on how much you add and of you quench.
3 It is great for anything pistol under 1000fps as is.
4 It can be added to stubborn straight lead to make great muzzle loader balls and swcs.

Back to getting the 1 to 30 or 30 to 1 as is called it, and tin into perspective.

Here is a couple pics. IMG_20200919_223855827_HDR~2.jpg
This amount of pewter wear, although it looks like a lot only produced 12 oz. After the non pewter material was removed and it was melted and cleaned. Then poured into Ingot. Something to consider when using pewter finds for tin.
IMG_20200920_153917340_HDR~2.jpg
This is what a pound of pure lead and a pound of tin looks like.
Notice it takes way more tin then lead, volume wise to make a pound. A Lee 1/2 pound Ingot of pewter weighs about 2.5 to 2.7 oz.
A pound bar of pure lead is at he bottom of the pick, under the pile of tin Ingot weighing a pound
The Other items were added to give a size perspective.
 
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Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Once upon a time, on a website far far away, and long before Josh and Mitty had ever cast a bullet there was the “Tin War”!

Actually it was just a bunch of middle aged men arguing about whether or not too much tin could cause leading, or hard spots(tin and antimony having an affair). There was also a religious component to the war, there was a faction that cried “Wasting TIN is a SIN!”, they felt that at no time was more than 2% tin ever sanctioned by God!


But, really in all seriousness, I got worried that my soft scrap fishing lead/pewter 20:1 was going to lead my gun barrels badly because of the upside down tin to antimony ratio. This in fact did not happen. Fit on these bullets was good, and in both lubed and PC’d loads I haven’t had leading with this recycled trash alloy. One of the Veterans of the “Great Tin War“ has been quoted as saying “It only matters, if it does”!

Josh

P.s. I have a Thrift Store that is three blocks from my house. I often go for walks in the early evening after work and look for pewter. I probably average about two pounds a month, at about five bucks a pound.
 
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Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Once upon a time, on a website far far away, and long before Josh and Mitty had ever cast a bullet there was the “Tin War”!

Actually it was just a bunch of middle aged men arguing about whether or not too much tin could cause leading, or hard spots(tin and antimony having an affair). There was also a religious component to the war, there was a faction that cried “Wasting TIN is a SIN!”, they felt that at no time was more than 2% tin ever sanctioned by God!


But, really in all seriousness, I got worried that my soft scrap fishing lead/pewter 20:1 was going to lead my gun barrels badly because of the upside down tin to antimony ratio. This in fact did not happen. Fit on these bullets was good, and in both lubed and PC’d loads I haven’t had leading with this recycled trash alloy. One of the Veterans of the “Great Tin War“ has been quoted as saying “It only matters, if it does”!

Josh

P.s. I have a Thrift Store that is three blocks from my house. I often go for walks in the early evening after work and look for pewter. I probably average about two pounds a month, at about five bucks a pound.
I often use the 30 to one as a game changer say I am casting and have an issue. Especially with an unknown like range scrap or a boat weight. I add a pound or two, and give it a while to mix in, then start casting again.
It is a good equalizer, and pretty easy to make in the lee 20lb pot as long as you already have clean metal. Thus why I figure it is a good alloy for beginners. Plus it is very forgiving.
Trying to avoid any tin antimony harder is better battles, to each his owe, as they say.
Just want to give a newcomer to making alloy, A visual of what he is dealing with. The basic knowledge required, and Then a good easy place to start. Some where he can build from.:cool:

Any more tips and hints ideas are sure welcome. Who knows I may learn something.
Like you were implying, sometimes what works for you might not work for me. Or even to go farther, sometimes what works does not even make sence that it does.
 
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Rally

NC Minnesota
Mitty,
I bet I can match those three pieces exactly. There seem to be lots of those cream pitcher around these parts, and lots of the same candle stick holders too. Be careful buying the candlestick holders because there are some around just like it with weighted bases, full of some kind of filler, I’ve heard it is camel dung, but not sure. Lol Makes a big difference in weight.

josh,
You need to look at estate sales/ garage sales. I’ve yet to pay much over a dollar a pound. Beer mug was .50.
C2D3B40B-66CC-4480-B51A-9C0D8408C6BD.jpegA6A8AE1F-9618-49B1-A781-A12F74F243B8.jpeg
Got this set at a garage sale/ estate sale last Friday for $3, it was marked $5 but old ladies like to haggle! Lol
 
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Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Rally,
Location, Location, Location! I live in a working class neighborhood that was mostly built during WWII. I have one of the larger houses on my street because it was built before the war, it’s still only 1,700 square feet. Most of my neighbors homes are 1,000 feet or less. During the war our town’s population more than tripled. There was a lot of work to be done. Here is a quote from a historical site,
“During the war, Navy Yard Puget Sound repaired 26 battleships -- some more than once -- 18 aircraft carriers, 13 cruisers, and 79 destroyers. In addition, the 30,000-plus shipyard workers built 53 new vessels, including five aircraft carriers, 13 destroyers and eight destroyer escorts, and they overhauled, repaired, or fitted out another 400 warships.”

Houses in this neighborhood start about 325k and go up from there. Everything seems to be more expensive here.

I do sometimes score at garage sales, getting a pound of pewter for a buck or two. But also in the past I have paid more than I should have. I won’t buy a 5oz creamer for $5.99 anymore, I just walk away now.

I shoot for $3.00 a pound, but $5.00 seems more realistic.

But even at that price for pewter, 20:1 is my cheapest alloy. Wheel weights have been banned here for over a decade.

Josh
 
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Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Be careful buying the candlestick holders because there are some around just like it with weighted bases
Yep, the candlestick pictured was filled with about a Quarter pound of Plaster of Paris. Then had a tin plated piece of steel set in the middle with the hallmark stamped on it. The offending plaster coated in felt. Would have fooled me but I ran into stuff like that before.
They Antique-Amish thing is big in our area, big tourist market, so people round here, think pewter is worth gold price.
Those were thrift store finds, so that cost me $9 for the 12 oz., $12 a pound. Still cheaper then buying tin straight out at $17 a pound plus shipping..
I prefer to hit the estate sales and garage sales also, when I can. Usually come out at about $5 a pound. But will still buy at thrift stores if I can find it at a savings over tin.
Thing is you have to learn to judge the scrap value. Best way is by doing.
My second pewter buy is still sitting on my table as a catch all. Said pewter on the bottom, but was plastic wrapped in pewter foil.
I have found.... If it says Colonial or Holland on the bottom it is mostly Tin with a little bit of copper and a touch of bismuth or antimony . You want that.:)
If it says made in china,:eek: run.
PS. I want that scale!
 
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Mitty38

Well-Known Member
I shoot for $3.00 a pound, but $5.00 seems more realistic.
My last batch of 30to1 cost me $215 . Made 60 lbs.
Now I will mix that with other stuff (like range scrap) most of which cost me nothing, but time, and a little propane. To improve the blend.
Don't know the going rate but... I am sure I did not get hurt any by making my own. Especially after shipping and hidden fees.
 
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CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
I use allot of tin & lead. 16:1 & 20:1 The most. But 10:1 & 30:1 occasionally too. Probably 20:1 the most.

No pewter at all round here that I have found. I buy 50/50 bars or 100% tin online lil over 15% a pound. Cheaper then what roto metals charges.

CW
 

Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
My last batch of 30to1 cost me $215 . Made 60 lbs.
My cost for homemade 20:1 is at or below a dollar a pound. $5.00 per pound for pewter and $0.75 to $0.40 per pound for soft scrap lead.

I have enough pewter right now to make up 525 pounds of it. I’m short on soft lead, I guess I need to pick up another 300 pounds of soft lead.

Josh
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
50-50 is also a great source to alloy with.
I figure if I am saving something over retail then I am good. Whether buying pewter, 50-50, or whatever. For me, it is a lot about getting more bullets I can shoot for the money I have. Say I have $30, I can buy 100 jacketed .357 bullets, or make 500 cast lead bullets.
I choose to make the 500 and shoot 400 more times. If I could only make 125 bullets I still would do it because that is 25 times more I get to shoot.

Yet for me it is not just savings, it is the pride in making or refurbishing, creating, something useful. The more steps I take in producing my own, ammo, the happier it makes me.
 
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Walks

Well-Known Member
I still have a fair amount of Tin, and I bought a LOT of 20/1 from old Mr. Art Green when he was still with Us, a Very Fine Gentleman.
I've never seen pewter around here. Guess it was too heavy to make it by wagon to CA. Most of what I shot while Cowboy Shooting was 50/50 COWW/#2.

As far as reloading/casting goes. I just don't know any better. I grew up doing it, All the Men in My Family did. I have no concept of shooting and not doing it. I've got a lot of Folks started in it.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Walks I think it must have made it . I bought a little pewter in Reno probably 10-15# out of Savers .
 

Rally

NC Minnesota
Mitty,
You might check and see, but there was a guy on CB selling pewter ingots for $8 pound. There was also a long thread on there about identifying different hallmarks, and translations of foreign languages used in those hallmarks. I put them in my phone in the notebook thing, so I have a reference. My wife is a "Garage Sale Godess" and runs with several women who go by the same tag, and real proud of it! She brings me all kinds of stuff, or text me a picture of her finds. I have a post on here, of one such find, 1/3 of a bucket full of solder scrap from a radiator shop, with bars of babbit, and partial bars of 50/50 solder. Good women!
 

hrpenley

Active Member
I like to play around with my alloys, I keep a log of all the mixes (Alloy05.xls alloy calculator) found on one of the other bbs, I use Rotometals foundry, 70/30, I pick up lino from some of the printing company's (yes they still exist) Pure lead from scrap and sheet, WW from mom and pop tire shops, (Cant get from chain stores any more) I even picked up a brick of PbAs 84/16 from Belgium metal supplier (I heat harden for high pressure stuff) cant rely on As content in wheel weights any more so I use that to boost the Arsenic content. ( 22lbs will do about 1500-2000lbs of untreated metals,) I drop it back a bit if using WW in the mix.
 

hrpenley

Active Member
Me and a buddy even picked up about 40lbs of pure Antimony from Rotometals a while back (on sale), had to use the shop torch to melt it then add the lead, made our own 70/30 - worked out well but don't bother its more of a pain in the butt than its worth, just buy the pre-made if you want to go that route., same thing with using pure arsenic metal (have to use respirator when doing this, don't try in your garage for god's sake!!)
 

hrpenley

Active Member
For the beginner:

Chapter 1

Alloy why?



There is a lot to really alloying metals if you want to dig deep, Can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it, in the end we are still just throwing a stone all be it a little faster than our cave dwelling ancestors. A few tips for the beginning castor, you will eventually use wheel weights (WW) as they are referred to or scrap lead to make your base metal. You never want to cast from the same pot you use to reduce your scrap unless of course you are a clean freak. Your pot will collect unwanted oxides and grit around the sides and bottom of the pot and will make its way into your metal. It will cause inclusions in your bullets and this becomes a weak point along with it’s unsightly appearance.

There are 3 basic metals that you will use in your mix and you will see ratios listed in many threads such as 1:16 , 1:30 etc, these refer to the basic percentages of a particular metal with Lead (Pb) being the first the second will be Tin (Sn) and 3rd will be Antimony (Sb) (Usually) and. There is a 4th component not talked about much but very important in the production of shot and indispensable to heat hardening called Arsenic (As) I can bring that up in a later chapter if anyone is interested. In the old days pure lead was used in musket balls and some of the old timers (no offense intended) still use this and swear by it.

Most current cast bullets use a mixture of Pb, Sb and Sn

A basic breakdown of the metals are as follows

Pb-Lead is the heart of the slug it provides the mass and malleability of the projectile

Sb- Antimony is the hardening agent – It provides a rigid lattice for the lead to “wrap around” this allows the shooter to push the lead bullet to a much higher velocity than it would otherwise be capable

Sn – Tin is the fluidity agent; it reduces the surface tension of the lead and allows the liquid metal to “flow” into the small spaces in your bullet mold giving you a full fill-out and and resulting good bullet. Tin also provides some additional hardness but negligible when compared to Antimony



  • Side note: when mixed the melting temperature of the new alloy is lower than all the original components – maybe another chapter….
Some standard mixes you will see referred to and probably will work with:

1:16 (94%Pb/6%Sn)

1:30 (97%Pb/3%Sn)

Foundry Lead – (64%Pb/23%Sb/12.5%Sn)

Linotype Lead – (84%Pb/12%Sb/4%Sn)

Hardball Lead – (92%Pb/6%Sb/2%Sn)



These are just a few examples you will come across, with these and others the castor can customize the Hardness (BHN- More later) of his bullet to accommodate exacting pressure deformation and expansion for any load and caliber you desire.

Many castors use the 1 for all method and this is fine for anyone who doesn’t really want to play with hot metal – but I do so that’s enough said of that…..



I will add additional chapters if anyone really is interested, also I can do special chapters by request, at least if I have any idea how to do that……

I welcome comments and corrections…
 

hrpenley

Active Member
Chapter 2

Getting metal

Bullets require metal, not just any metal, there are a number of metals that can be used to cast good bullets, lead and lead alloys are the oldest and still the best, and newer bullets use bismuth (The green bullet) copper and steel a few others have been tried but that’s for another time (The last 2 are out of the cost constraints for most casters) so we will stick with lead and lead alloys for this article.

Where do we get lead?

You have only 2 options, buy it new or scrap it, since most of us are in this to save money (ya right!) I will be looking at the scrap option first.

The best way to get pure lead is from old lead pipe, used lead sheet, xray film packages, scrap mri machines, diving belt weights (sometime may be hardened) NOT lead acid battery’s!! These now contain cadmium and other toxic metals you don’t want to get into your bullets or your lungs…



Wheel weights are a great source of lead as is range scrap however this is not pure lead and will have other alloys along with a fair amount of crap that needs to be removed before it is usable.

Keep your lead separate and stamp it or mark it so you know what you have.



If I am casting for rifle, I will use pure (or as pure as I happen to have at the time) metals to get the hardness I am looking for, If I am casting for normal handgun (.380, 9mm, .40, .45 etc.) straight WW is the ticket.



Standard handgun slugs are fine with a hardness (BHN) in the 8-12 region, Rifle and some high-power handguns will need to be higher 12+ for proper usage. This can be achieved by adding a hardening agent or the application of heat. I prefer the application of heat (heat hardening) to raise my hardness as this preserves the malleability of the slug without sacrificing its integrity since brittleness is unavoidable if relying on alloy alone. (More on this later)



Melting lead without getting burned……



Not going to happen so if you don’t want to get a little crispy don’t bother trying to cast your own slugs bottom line…. Sorry



However this problem can be mitigated to some extent with a little common sense

  • Never melt wet components – they will explode and you will get a lead shower-not nice
  • Wear gloves and glasses when melting lead, even lead that appears dry can have enough moisture to make a bang and then again – lead shower – wheel weights are notorious for this, moisture will get mixed in with the road dirt and other “things” that cling to them. I have let ww sit for months in a bucket in the garage and still had a pop or 2 from them.
  • Do all your melting in a Well-Ventilated Area. There is nothing worse that the stink of wheel weights in your house or garage- outside is best for this process.
  • Use a temperature-controlled pot or thermometer at all times (At least till you get the feel for things) this will prevent you from accidentally melting zinc into you mix and reduce the amount of toxic fumes generated, 700F is top end for this process, lower if possible.
  • Don’t eat or smoke when doing this, this will keep the lead and other nasty’s out of you via ingestion route.
  • Best part – keep children and other family members away from you area when doing this, this is private time………..


Use common sense when working with hot metals is the best advice I can give you and I really do mean keep people away when doing this, its safer and you will make less mistakes if you can concentrate on what you are doing, not carrying on a conversation, save that for later.
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
For the beginner:

Chapter 1

Alloy why?



There is a lot to really alloying metals if you want to dig deep, Can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it, in the end we are still just throwing a stone all be it a little faster than our cave dwelling ancestors. A few tips for the beginning castor, you will eventually use wheel weights (WW) as they are referred to or scrap lead to make your base metal. You never want to cast from the same pot you use to reduce your scrap unless of course you are a clean freak. Your pot will collect unwanted oxides and grit around the sides and bottom of the pot and will make its way into your metal. It will cause inclusions in your bullets and this becomes a weak point along with it’s unsightly appearance.

There are 3 basic metals that you will use in your mix and you will see ratios listed in many threads such as 1:16 , 1:30 etc, these refer to the basic percentages of a particular metal with Lead (Pb) being the first the second will be Tin (Sn) and 3rd will be Antimony (Sb) (Usually) and. There is a 4th component not talked about much but very important in the production of shot and indispensable to heat hardening called Arsenic (As) I can bring that up in a later chapter if anyone is interested. In the old days pure lead was used in musket balls and some of the old timers (no offense intended) still use this and swear by it.

Most current cast bullets use a mixture of Pb, Sb and Sn

A basic breakdown of the metals are as follows

Pb-Lead is the heart of the slug it provides the mass and malleability of the projectile

Sb- Antimony is the hardening agent – It provides a rigid lattice for the lead to “wrap around” this allows the shooter to push the lead bullet to a much higher velocity than it would otherwise be capable

Sn – Tin is the fluidity agent; it reduces the surface tension of the lead and allows the liquid metal to “flow” into the small spaces in your bullet mold giving you a full fill-out and and resulting good bullet. Tin also provides some additional hardness but negligible when compared to Antimony



  • Side note: when mixed the melting temperature of the new alloy is lower than all the original components – maybe another chapter….
Some standard mixes you will see referred to and probably will work with:

1:16 (94%Pb/6%Sn)

1:30 (97%Pb/3%Sn)

Foundry Lead – (64%Pb/23%Sb/12.5%Sn)

Linotype Lead – (84%Pb/12%Sb/4%Sn)

Hardball Lead – (92%Pb/6%Sb/2%Sn)



These are just a few examples you will come across, with these and others the castor can customize the Hardness (BHN- More later) of his bullet to accommodate exacting pressure deformation and expansion for any load and caliber you desire.

Many castors use the 1 for all method and this is fine for anyone who doesn’t really want to play with hot metal – but I do so that’s enough said of that…..



I will add additional chapters if anyone really is interested, also I can do special chapters by request, at least if I have any idea how to do that……

I welcome comments and corrections…
Great post with a lot of good info. Why I started this thread. To give new casters an good start with info that most of us never mention because we just take it for granted.
When I started casting bullets there were so many questions, and I run the lab in a aluminum alloy plant.
So many bits of info are specific to lead and bullet casting.
The old farts around here just assume that because they have known something since they hunted with Danial Boon, that everybody already knows it. LOL
Wish I could put your post up top with my initial post, A lot of good basic info there.1600701186686.png