For those new to alloying tin and lead
Ian
Notorious member
Lots of good info so far, keep it going!
My own approach to alloying, your mileage may vary: https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/article-5-alloy-for-accuracy-and-hunting.197/
My own approach to alloying, your mileage may vary: https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/article-5-alloy-for-accuracy-and-hunting.197/
Yep you are correct, you also have to be careful what kind of pewter you get as some of it has zinc, bismuth and other elements also, I have not really seen any issues with a slight bit of copper, the required tin addition is usually so low and the copper content is usually only a small percent of that. I have also read copper has been tried as a hardening agent along with Sb in a higher percentage but I have not tried this myself so I can not speak intelligently on that subject.
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I will have to go back through my 9gb of notes and books and see if I can find my Pewter list, I came across a paper a while back that lists all the types (product names/mfg stamps) of Pewter, Britania metal, babit etc. along with the known ingredient's , this helped me weed out the bad stuff. I will post it if anyone wants a copy, assuming I can find it again.....
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Chapter 3
To flux or not to flux that is the question!
Well that’s a stupid question of course we flux but what is flux?
Merriam- Webster describes flux as the following
flux
Definition of flux
1 : a flowing of fluid from the body: such as
a : diarrhea
b : dysentery
2 : a continuous moving on or passing by (as of a stream)
3 : a continued flow : flood a flux of words
4a : influx
b : change, fluctuation in a state of flux the flux following the death of the emperor
5 : a substance used to promote fusion (as of metals or minerals) especially : one (such as rosin) applied to surfaces to be joined by soldering, brazing, or welding to clean and free them from oxide and promote their union
6 : the rate of transfer of fluid, particles, or energy across a given surface
Although I am personally familiar with both 1&2 let us stick with 5&6 for now
For some reason the process of fluxing is a touchy subject for some, The real title of this forum should be “The Art, Science and Religion of Bullet Casting” given some of the “discussions” I have seen in the past on many boards. I will attempt to make the reason for fluxing and the actual physical and chemical process clear to the reader without attempting to flair the nerves and passions of some of our readers.
In our little world (and getting smaller by the day) Fluxing means removing unwanted rubbish from out metal and leaving the desired elements intact.
There are really 2 distinct processes of fluxing and yes they do overlap in a way. There are also a number of agents that are use for fluxing (This is where the war starts)
In reality any material that burns to carbon can be used as a fluxing agent for secondary applications (from ingot to bullet)
I am breaking this down on a personal level as I scrap to get the bulk of my base lead metal so really 2 distinct fluxing process are required to get a good bullet
First flux.
I will use scrap lead and wheel weights (I will assume it has been per-sorted – maybe a chapter on wheel weight discrimination would be good – can I say that?) as the first example as most casters will start this way, it’s the cheapest (ya right!)
Again – please use gloves, eye protection and proper clothing for this process (long sleeves or welders greens are best but not necessary) you will soon figure out what works best for you but I am trying to save you from the burn…..
Be as sure as you can that your materials are dry, if you decide to power wash or pre-clean these types of items you will get water mixed in the small cracks and remaining contamination and this is a problem later on.
Some have suggested putting your materials into the pot then turning it on, this is great for the first load but unless you want to do a lot of little loads this only works once. I have a high temp piece of material I put over the top of the pot, this serves 2 purposes 1) limits the splash or popping of wet stuff and 2) limits the amount of free oxygen getting to the mix (more later on this)
Don’t load your pot by hand, even with gloves when you drop more material into the pot it will splash. I use a pair of tongs to put the scrap into the pot – this gives you additional distance from the melt and reduces the splash potential. It also allows me to lift the covering and put material in and if it does pop or splash the material will protect my body from any stray lead rain.
I set my pot at 700F-720F for this operation, this allows the lead to melt but any Zinc that was missed in the sorting process (yep another chapter) and we all will miss some, will not melt and turn your nice pretty lead into shiny mashed potatoes. Zinc melts at 787F Pure lead melts at 621F and lead alloys even lower, just so you know and don’t try to speed up the process until you have a better handle on what you are throwing in your pot.
Now we are getting somewhere, you should after a short time have a nice pool of lead sitting in the bottom of your pot – covered by a big heap of junk, mostly plastic and steel clips, and it really stinks so do this outside they also say in a well ventilated area – I don’t care how well ventilated the area is, the stink that comes off this process is not only toxic but sticks to everything and if you do this in the house or garage you are going to smell it for a very long time so , up to you – you have been advised…
Once I get a load melted I use salad tongs (the kind with the tines on the end) to remove the plastic, clips and other assorted trash, I then repeat this process till my pot is 2/3-3/4 full of metal, When you flux is optional as I have fluxed between each loading upon removal of the trash and I have waited till the pot was full to flux, both ways work so its up to you.
What to flux with – now here is the great point of contention for most casters. Some use sawdust some use over the counter fluxing agents some use their own secrete mixture which has included everything from motor oil to pine needles, The real truth of the matter is it doesn’t matter, as long as its organic and burns to a carbon ash. This is what I refer to as the second flux but let’s get back to the first flux.
Why does the metal look so clean when you remove all the crap?
Because the oils and the assorted trash are burning and creating carbon, its its own flux in a way, this helps displace the oxides but doesn’t do much with the small particles still moving around in the mix. For this I use a borax base flux, you don’t need much just a half teaspoon full or so to cover the melt. I run the pot temp to at least 720 for this, it just seems to work best around this temp for me. Then you stir, and stir, and stir, this is not a quick process and don’t rush it, when I say stir I mean a deep stir, you want to bring as much foreign matter to the surface as you can, in turn the borax, turns into an ashy glass of sorts, this will capture the majority of dirt and “stuff” still remaining in your pot. Once the ash is all black and floaty (not wet) it can be removed with a spoon and leaves you with a nice little pile of black/gray-ish powder. The surface will be nice and shiny and dirt free. The fluxing should be done as many times as needed but usually 1-2 times is all I have ever really needed.
Pour you clean metal into ingots and mark as WW, you now have your first load of base metal ready to get you on your way
The next post will deal with the second flux if this one doesn’t get me thrown off the board….
To flux or not to flux that is the question!
Well that’s a stupid question of course we flux but what is flux?
Merriam- Webster describes flux as the following
flux
Definition of flux
1 : a flowing of fluid from the body: such as
a : diarrhea
b : dysentery
2 : a continuous moving on or passing by (as of a stream)
3 : a continued flow : flood a flux of words
4a : influx
b : change, fluctuation in a state of flux the flux following the death of the emperor
5 : a substance used to promote fusion (as of metals or minerals) especially : one (such as rosin) applied to surfaces to be joined by soldering, brazing, or welding to clean and free them from oxide and promote their union
6 : the rate of transfer of fluid, particles, or energy across a given surface
Although I am personally familiar with both 1&2 let us stick with 5&6 for now
For some reason the process of fluxing is a touchy subject for some, The real title of this forum should be “The Art, Science and Religion of Bullet Casting” given some of the “discussions” I have seen in the past on many boards. I will attempt to make the reason for fluxing and the actual physical and chemical process clear to the reader without attempting to flair the nerves and passions of some of our readers.
In our little world (and getting smaller by the day) Fluxing means removing unwanted rubbish from out metal and leaving the desired elements intact.
There are really 2 distinct processes of fluxing and yes they do overlap in a way. There are also a number of agents that are use for fluxing (This is where the war starts)
In reality any material that burns to carbon can be used as a fluxing agent for secondary applications (from ingot to bullet)
I am breaking this down on a personal level as I scrap to get the bulk of my base lead metal so really 2 distinct fluxing process are required to get a good bullet
First flux.
I will use scrap lead and wheel weights (I will assume it has been per-sorted – maybe a chapter on wheel weight discrimination would be good – can I say that?) as the first example as most casters will start this way, it’s the cheapest (ya right!)
Again – please use gloves, eye protection and proper clothing for this process (long sleeves or welders greens are best but not necessary) you will soon figure out what works best for you but I am trying to save you from the burn…..
Be as sure as you can that your materials are dry, if you decide to power wash or pre-clean these types of items you will get water mixed in the small cracks and remaining contamination and this is a problem later on.
Some have suggested putting your materials into the pot then turning it on, this is great for the first load but unless you want to do a lot of little loads this only works once. I have a high temp piece of material I put over the top of the pot, this serves 2 purposes 1) limits the splash or popping of wet stuff and 2) limits the amount of free oxygen getting to the mix (more later on this)
Don’t load your pot by hand, even with gloves when you drop more material into the pot it will splash. I use a pair of tongs to put the scrap into the pot – this gives you additional distance from the melt and reduces the splash potential. It also allows me to lift the covering and put material in and if it does pop or splash the material will protect my body from any stray lead rain.
I set my pot at 700F-720F for this operation, this allows the lead to melt but any Zinc that was missed in the sorting process (yep another chapter) and we all will miss some, will not melt and turn your nice pretty lead into shiny mashed potatoes. Zinc melts at 787F Pure lead melts at 621F and lead alloys even lower, just so you know and don’t try to speed up the process until you have a better handle on what you are throwing in your pot.
Now we are getting somewhere, you should after a short time have a nice pool of lead sitting in the bottom of your pot – covered by a big heap of junk, mostly plastic and steel clips, and it really stinks so do this outside they also say in a well ventilated area – I don’t care how well ventilated the area is, the stink that comes off this process is not only toxic but sticks to everything and if you do this in the house or garage you are going to smell it for a very long time so , up to you – you have been advised…
Once I get a load melted I use salad tongs (the kind with the tines on the end) to remove the plastic, clips and other assorted trash, I then repeat this process till my pot is 2/3-3/4 full of metal, When you flux is optional as I have fluxed between each loading upon removal of the trash and I have waited till the pot was full to flux, both ways work so its up to you.
What to flux with – now here is the great point of contention for most casters. Some use sawdust some use over the counter fluxing agents some use their own secrete mixture which has included everything from motor oil to pine needles, The real truth of the matter is it doesn’t matter, as long as its organic and burns to a carbon ash. This is what I refer to as the second flux but let’s get back to the first flux.
Why does the metal look so clean when you remove all the crap?
Because the oils and the assorted trash are burning and creating carbon, its its own flux in a way, this helps displace the oxides but doesn’t do much with the small particles still moving around in the mix. For this I use a borax base flux, you don’t need much just a half teaspoon full or so to cover the melt. I run the pot temp to at least 720 for this, it just seems to work best around this temp for me. Then you stir, and stir, and stir, this is not a quick process and don’t rush it, when I say stir I mean a deep stir, you want to bring as much foreign matter to the surface as you can, in turn the borax, turns into an ashy glass of sorts, this will capture the majority of dirt and “stuff” still remaining in your pot. Once the ash is all black and floaty (not wet) it can be removed with a spoon and leaves you with a nice little pile of black/gray-ish powder. The surface will be nice and shiny and dirt free. The fluxing should be done as many times as needed but usually 1-2 times is all I have ever really needed.
Pour you clean metal into ingots and mark as WW, you now have your first load of base metal ready to get you on your way
The next post will deal with the second flux if this one doesn’t get me thrown off the board….
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Ya, Im just keeping it simple for now to general usage as to what I found works for me, if its a beginner they got a ways to go before understanding whats going on, trying to take a simple step by step approach to casting and planned to get into how it actually works later on, by all means feel free to tack on any extra info to the theme.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Thank you for mentioning that.
I have used borax during cleaning as a final cleaning step during initial ingot making.
I have known Borax as a non reactive. It removers Free Carbon and Fines well in other metals. It used often in he smelting industry, usually mixed with another fluxing agent.
One of those things I have not mentioned because I was unsure of the science but it seemed to work well for me. Never saw it or at least never noticed it mentioned before, So I kept my mouth shut to avoid the proverbial can of worms from being opened.
*If you use Borax remember that it can absorb and hold water, so it Can and Will eventually pop when added to the lead puddle. Precautions for splash and pop should be taken when adding anything, once the lead starts to melt anyway.
Sorry for the drift. Or was that Dreft. LOL I'll shut up now.
Very informative , it is obvious you have been around the block concerning lead refining and alloying,
a time of two. Looking forward to more.
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yes, thank you for mentioning that, again old habits, if you use the same spoon to clear away the ash it may very well sizzle and pop. I keep a desiccant pack in the jar... see we all need to input this stuff is easy to forget to mention..Thank you for mentioning that.
I have used borax during cleaning as a final cleaning step during initial ingot making.
I have known Borax as a non reactive. It removers Free Carbon and Fines well in other metals. It used often in he smelting industry, usually mixed with another fluxing agent.
One of those things I have not mentioned because I was unsure of the science but it seemed to work well for me. Never saw it or at least never noticed it mentioned before, So I kept my mouth shut to avoid the proverbial can of worms from being opened.
*If you use Borax remember that it can absorb and hold water, so it Can and Will eventually pop when added to the lead puddle. Precautions for splash and pop should be taken when adding anything, once the lead starts to melt anyway.
Sorry for the drift. Or was that Dreft. LOL I'll shut up now.
Very informative , it is obvious you have been around the block concerning lead refining and alloying,
Ian
Notorious member
Borax is for laundry. If you get near my casting pot with a container of that nasty, hygroscopic, goopy junk I will throw you out. It rusts everything in its sight and harbors the perfect conditions for steam explosions. Further, it ADsorbs all metallic oxides without reducing them, so you lose good bullet metal in the form of oxides along with the other junk it bonds with
Ordinary wood sawdust does the same job, only cleaner, no loss of tin, antimony, or lead, and no visits from the Tinsel Faery.
Ordinary wood sawdust does the same job, only cleaner, no loss of tin, antimony, or lead, and no visits from the Tinsel Faery.
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Ian
Notorious member
just helping to make your point. Seriously, borate compounds do have their place in metallurgy and foundries for doing very specific things, but not at my house ever again. To each their own, it IS good to be educated regarding multiple options and techniques of any process.You have valid points, as I stated I never use the same pot to scrap as I do to cast and recommended the same, and safety was mentioned several times but let me offer an alternative possibility.. as the plastic and other flammable debris burn the oxygen along with generating gasses such as carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide and other nasties along with the rising heat displaces the remaining oxygen producing carbon. This allows the reduction of the metal oxides back into the mix which is why its always clean and shiny looking after the removal of the unusable clips and unburnt plastics, at least that has been my experience. I don't use any borax base in my final mix and casting pot. The addition of the borax is only to capture any remaining small debris left in the melt. When I have reduced the flux to ash I have barely any more waste that I started with compared to the quantity of flux added.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Ditto. See what I said about a can of worms?
Well now that they are all over the floor let's pick a few up. Shall we? Lol
For those who have really nasty weights with rust in them, or have over way over fluxed and carbonized their metal. As I often have, as most of my coww's have been caught in the rain.Borax can be an easy way of saving it.
Now I do not use it ever in my Lee, come bullet making time, or when working with metal that is fairly clean. My ingots are as clean as possible when they hit the electric pot.
Never when making tin ingot, like Ian said it lifts oxides. Tin oxides easy and they need to be stirred back in, not lifted out. This I tend to use only parafin as a reductant when messing with pewter, Tin is real good at cleaning itself any way.
But wheel weights that have sat in water for 6 month or more. Using it and loosing a little tin oxides may be worth getting all that Iron oxide from your mix.
Also to agree with Ian's inference, an never repeated too often, It cleans so well that it encourages rust, and right away, so never use in you final casting pot.
Also most important the safety issue when I use borax I wear a face shield and gloves. I also hang the spoon over the pot a while to let it dry out before I put it in the pot. Then wait at least 10 seconds, or so, before I stir it in.
If you are not comfortable, with it spitting lava back at you, then is best left alone. Because it will, and when you least expect it
Well now that they are all over the floor let's pick a few up. Shall we? Lol
For those who have really nasty weights with rust in them, or have over way over fluxed and carbonized their metal. As I often have, as most of my coww's have been caught in the rain.Borax can be an easy way of saving it.
Now I do not use it ever in my Lee, come bullet making time, or when working with metal that is fairly clean. My ingots are as clean as possible when they hit the electric pot.
Never when making tin ingot, like Ian said it lifts oxides. Tin oxides easy and they need to be stirred back in, not lifted out. This I tend to use only parafin as a reductant when messing with pewter, Tin is real good at cleaning itself any way.
But wheel weights that have sat in water for 6 month or more. Using it and loosing a little tin oxides may be worth getting all that Iron oxide from your mix.
Also to agree with Ian's inference, an never repeated too often, It cleans so well that it encourages rust, and right away, so never use in you final casting pot.
Also most important the safety issue when I use borax I wear a face shield and gloves. I also hang the spoon over the pot a while to let it dry out before I put it in the pot. Then wait at least 10 seconds, or so, before I stir it in.
If you are not comfortable, with it spitting lava back at you, then is best left alone. Because it will, and when you least expect it
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This is good to know, I never actually had the borax cause me any splash problems as I mentioned I always keep 3-4 descants packs and rotate them (you can restore them with a short run in the dehydrator and armscor sends 1 in every bag of bullets so got a lot) I did however get a surprise when I realized I should not use the same spoon to scrape as I use to add the flux. I now use a clean dry spoon to add my flux.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Course it is often over 60% humidity where I live, and I do get my borax from the laundry room and do my smelting on the porch.
With all your precautions. You may never have that issue with borax that has gotten wet, but not enough to visually tell. But if you do you will never forget it.
However all this aside...
Emphasises for the new guy...
The main issue with safety and molten metal is contact with you body. Whether moisture, causing a pop, splash. Or spillage, or breathing vapors. A caster - smelter, needs to always be mindfully of this. Once that metal melts, it is best to be ready for that to happen.
Was told when I took my first job working around hot metal years ago.
Sooner or later you will get burnt. How bad the burn is, largely depends on your safety practices.
With all your precautions. You may never have that issue with borax that has gotten wet, but not enough to visually tell. But if you do you will never forget it.
However all this aside...
Emphasises for the new guy...
The main issue with safety and molten metal is contact with you body. Whether moisture, causing a pop, splash. Or spillage, or breathing vapors. A caster - smelter, needs to always be mindfully of this. Once that metal melts, it is best to be ready for that to happen.
Was told when I took my first job working around hot metal years ago.
Sooner or later you will get burnt. How bad the burn is, largely depends on your safety practices.
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