Former N frame 45 ACP to 45 Schofield ?

[RBHarter]

I've been on about this project for some time and it's getting close to time , money and it all being together .
So I have a disfigured 1917 , a 6" 1955 probably target barrel and the cylinder is reamed to HS on the case mouth of the Schofield .
Why not Colts ? Well because I have a RBH and Mag receiver 92's and I'd rather not make that kind of a mistake . 35, kpsi being a proof load for 45 ACP and all .
Standard Schofield (S&W) is only 14 kpsi so there are big gains from there to 18-19kpsi that certainly the ACP chassis should manage with plenty of life to spare .
I plan on a regular diet of 250 gr NOE version 454424s and probably 6-7 gr of Unique . Half way between max loads in ACP and Colts std . Probably the lower side maybe using Rowland data . The hot side of the 45 S&W for now anyway .

Why well I wanted a Double Action 45 Colts and don't want to spend $1000 on the Red Hawk for a 4-5 cartridge gun if I can get it for half or less and have a one of a kind . I passively looked for the once abundant Raging Bulls ...... They seem to be in the same class as an untouched 1917 or Red Hawk and about as common as a 78' Beetle radiator . (Still and air cooled engine then so there aren't any) . In fact I could have bought a Ruger #1&#3 in 45-70 both for less than the last one I saw for sale . You don't see a lot of those for $400 each .

So I don't think I've ever heard reference to a Skeeter load for the short 45 . Seems like I heard about some pretty hot loads for ACP and I know there's Rowland data that goes 30kpsi . Is there anything out there ? Should I be reading my Pet Loads that is still in plastic maybe something in Waters Note Book ?

As a side note I have 200, 230, 250 , 265 , and 350 gr bullets to shoot the 250 just seems like the most thump for hogs etc .

Data sources suggestions for loads ?

 

[fiver]

7grs of Unigue in the 45 acp isn't for a 270 gr bullet it's for a 200gr bullet.

the schofield case isn't a whole lot bigger and that 454 for sure will be cutting the case capacity down.
think more like starting at 4 grains, which is where I started with a 250 in the acp/AR cases, and moving ahead slowly from there.

 

[Pistolero]

Actually, if you believe Elmer, he said 7.5 under his 452423 which is about 235 gr. Personally, I shot
7.0 one cylinder full and that was that. 6.5 works well for me with that bullet in .45 ACP.
Decreasing combustion chamber volume ramps up pressures very rapidly, so be sure to compare
the volume you wind up with to .45 ACP AND .45 Colt when estimating loads.
No need to be putting the top strap into low earth orbit.

Compare the .45 Colt case volume to your new cases, and to .45 Auto. I'd do something
like straight line interpolation. If the Colt is 10 gr of H2O, and ACP is 6 gr of H2O, and the
Schofield is 7.5 gr of H2O (with same bullet seated) then it has 75% the comb chamber capacity of
a Colt 45, and 125% the capacity of the ACP. Try using those as mulitipliers on charge weights and
see where you get from each direction. Hopefully somewhere near each other. I would
be nice to get the same answer from two directions.

And start low and work up - obviously.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

I don't think Ken Water (Pet Loads) did the Schofield and I know he never did real hot loads. He was very conservative. I'd listen to Fiver. I know nothing about the 45 Schofield other than it's case is somewhere between the ACP and Colt.

 

[Urny]

I do not know if this is of any use to you RB, but I have loaded a lot of 454424 (pretty old Lyman) with 4.5 grains Unique. It functioned my Commander pretty well, and did not seem abusive to me or the Colt. With the Lee group buy 452432 I used 5.5 grains Unique, but it seemed an unsuitable choice for that same Commander. That bullet had severe feed issues in my Commander, not much better in Linda's.

Those could probably be judiciously increased for the Schofield. I think careful work up would be pretty sensible.

Editing to note that this data is for .45 ACP. Very careless to have left that out.

 

[fiver]

Bill's way of doing it above is pretty much how I choose loads for many of my pistol cases.
but I'm usually doing a direct comparison between bullets in the same case looking for a start with some off the wall cast bullet.

I tend to be conservative in older guns anyway generally more concerned with getting them shooting somewhere close to the top of the front sight.
700-8-900 fps [meh] doesn't concern me a whole lot unless the holes in the paper are rectangular shaped.

the mass of a 270 gr bullet going anything over walking speed is enough for anything I'd have to deal with at 50 yards or less anyway, but I'd really like to be able to sit a soda can or grouse head on the front sight and perforate it.

 

[CZ93X62]

If Uberti would produce a repro of the S&W Schofield revolver IN ITS ORIGINAL CALIBER, I would have purchased one a long time ago. Uberti insists upon chambering their top-break repros in calibers other than original, and that grates on my sense of order--like '73 Winchesters in 45 Colt. HERESY! They do make one in 44 Russian, to be fair--but the Schofield upgrades really set that variant apart.

 

[fiver]

hey now it's not Winchesters fault colt can't make a properly sized case rim.

 

[Pistolero]

I agree on .45 Colt leverguns. Not something they ever made, not something I want.

Bill

 

[RBHarter]

Understood about the hot loading , case intrusion etc .
S&W. ACP Colts
Case length. 1.100. .898 1.285
Oal. 1. 430. 1.275. 1.600
Max psi. 14,000. 21,000. 14,000

I have at present used 5.5 Unique in both the ACP and S&W with 200s and 250s with no ill effects . Current load data from Alliant shows an RCBS 45-230 CM at 6.1 gr under Cowboy data . Same bullet in Colts at 8.5 and 5.8 in the ACP standard loads with the RN . My books are packed at the moment so it's a pain to hunt the data points ........ .3gr over the ACP drops pressure 7,000 psi and plus 2.4gr in .185 longer is equal pressure .
I would be comfortable matching velocity of Hogdon Universal or Tight group with Unique which are given at 830 and 811 under 13,000 psi because I have a strength buffer of 7,000 psi in the gun . The 6" barrel should buy me a little buffer for velocity gains , without increased pressures I will of course be reviewing lots of book data before doing anything brash .

 

[Brad]

I agree on .45 Colt leverguns. Not something they ever made, not something I want.

Bill

My Marlin 1894 CB with the 24” barrel might change your mind. Balances and handles like a shotgun but while shooting a 265 wfn at around 1600 FPS. Absolute joy to carry ion the field. Great on deer and hogs and also awesome on cans at the 50 yard berm.

 

[RicinYakima]

Yes, I have an early 00's Winchester 94 Ranger in 45 Colt. Works perfect with 457191 at 300 grains at 1050 f/s. Feeds 100% and will kill every wolf at my door.

 

[Brad]

What kind of load are you running Ric? I often use a 295 gr rnfp over 10gr of surplus #105. Gives me 1050-1100 FPS in the rifle and 850 FPS in my 4 5/8” Blackhawk. That load killed my last deer.

 

[CZ93X62]

I think Winchester missed a bet by not chambering a lever rifle in 45 Colt--it is a great revolver round, and gains greatly in power and range when launched through the longer rifle barrel. All of the pistol-caliber lever rifles do that, and heavy-for-caliber bullets help exploit that launch-tube length advantage even more.

Lamar alludes to the most likely reason why 45 Colt lever rifles didn't appear in the 1870s--that little tiny rim on the 45 Colt cartridge. Not much to grab on to for an extractor, whether we are talking a lever rifle--a top-break S&W revolver--or the swing-out D/A wheelgun. The 45 S&W case rim diameter is .525", the 45 Colt is .512". Case bodies on both are .480"

 

[RicinYakima]

Brad, 8.0 grains of SR7625, which is way over book for revolvers, but probably isn't over 20,000, that the rifle will take easily. Since I don't own any, and don't plan to, revolvers in 45 Colt it works for me. Ric

 

[fiver]

yeah, I don't remember exactly when the rim diameter got changed for the 45 colt but a lever gun had nothing to extract the round by until that change was made.

I find it kind of odd that the 357 and 44 mag were available as lever gun rounds before the 45 colt was.
most of the model 92 357's come around in the early days by ruining a perfectly good 25-20, amazing you could just swap in a barrel and raise the pressure up to the 357's back then and have it just keep on ticking.

Remington has problems with cracked receivers making 45 cal rifles now.

 

[RicinYakima]

Fiver, I believe that the '92 Winchester barrel shank is too small to take a 45 Colt case and have a margin of safety with todays reloaders. They want .454 Casull pressures. The 1894 barrel is much better for that size, IMHO. Ric

 

[RBHarter]

Rossi did the 92 in 454 for a long time . Now only in Colts . The a tion used for the Colts is however marked as an "M" for 44 magnum . I'm not the steel guy but .440 and .480 is only .04 . In practical terms a heavy file mark on one side . So even 20-25 kpsi loads should be safe for infinite .

The rim on the Colts wasn't increased but rather had a groove added to it to allow the extractor purchase . Sort of like a 25 ACP rim . I fed some Schofield cases through a 92' the magazine would only take 3 otherwise feeding and ejection was fine but the extractor wouldn't clear top fed over the rim . Probably a small issue to fix .

 

[Bass Ackward]

Going by load data is the way …. until you can't. I played the game your starting and would like to make a recommendation.

Buy Quickload for just this purpose. I have run numerous caliber checks over a chrono & compared to loading manuals of all vintages. I feel comfortable …. trusting that the pressure indicated (close) is producing that velocity. I load the Auto Rim just as if it were a Scofield using an 260 gr, LBT design so that I can go by sight an KNOW what I grabbed. (only practical with a longer (heavier) bullet cause of case neck tension. The wide bands just made this project flexible as all get out. I stopped, cause shortly after, I lost my Quickload.

Where the Quickload will shine is once you get the cartridge data programmed, you can flip through powders just like it was 4 or 5 powder company loading manuals to find the ONE that just offers an edge for the situation YOU want to create. Or that if you just adjust seating depth a tiny bit more, the burn rate curve will change enough that you can make a BIG jump. You will be …. safer, save a lot of your time, & maximize the situation which is really the purpose here. You won't wake in the middle of the night & wonder, what if I tried powder X? So you save BIG bucks in powder inventory too. After the 5th pound of powder you DON'T buy, the cost of the programs free.

Some of the old timers will remember these. (Pic) Too long to remember what’s in them.velocity was over 1000 FPS from the 5”er & I held the pressure to 21k to do it. My NEW Quickload is on it”s way.

 

[Bret4207]

yeah, I don't remember exactly when the rim diameter got changed for the 45 colt but a lever gun had nothing to extract the round by until that change was made.

I find it kind of odd that the 357 and 44 mag were available as lever gun rounds before the 45 colt was.
most of the model 92 357's come around in the early days by ruining a perfectly good 25-20, amazing you could just swap in a barrel and raise the pressure up to the 357's back then and have it just keep on ticking.

Remington has problems with cracked receivers making 45 cal rifles now.

And now it's hard to find a 92 357 that decent and even harder to find a 25-20. I ended up with a Rossi Puma in 44 Mag, but I wanted a 357. That little rifle sure lets you know know when you pop off a full house round! Joy to carry and use with 44 Specials.