From ignorance comes enlightenment

[Snakeoil]

I've been seeing various threads and comments about PC or Powder Coated bullets. My initial assumption was it was a type of powdered lube, like moly or graphite. So, I did some digging around the web and see that Lyman sells a super-fine moly for coating bullets. The reviews were all positive, except for the "mess" aspect.

I came back here to do some reading on PC bullets. Much to my surprise, upon closer inspection it turns out that PC is not another one of your insider terms for moly or similar, but rather just that, Powder Coat, aka PAINT.

Read quite a few posts on the topic last night and found it pretty interesting. It would appear that it is a compromise between copper jacketed and plain lead bullets.

So, let me regress a bit and ask about moly. I did a search and see that moly was the hot set-up some time back, but it came with problems. Apparently the moly would coat the bore and continue to build up if I am understanding what was said. It was also a bear to remove, with Kroil being the magic elixir. But I also noticed that shooters figured out a way to use moly.

At first glance, one would think that moly would be the ticket to avoiding messy grease/wax based bullet lubes. It would do nothing for softening any fouling. But I suspect that picking the correct powder and load would take care of that for the most part. And jacketed ammo has no lube to soften fouling, either.

Since Lyman still sells the stuff, it makes me think that it has merit. But then again, Popeil and Ronco made a fortune using that premise The ability to apply it in a tumbler certainly makes it appealing.

So, is it just wrong to use moly. Do the negatives outweigh the positives?

If there is a thread on this topic, just point me to it. I did a search and did not find anything that discussed the merits and detractors of moly coating bullets.

 

[Brad]

Moly doesn’t work well on cast. It does reduce friction but does nothing to stop gas cutting. I tried it and quickly walked away after scrubbing a barrel or two.

PC is simple to apply. It also just works. I was skeptical at first. After trying it I am leaning towards it more and more.

Jim discovered a good use for PC too. It can make a too small mould work as the PC can add .001-.002 easily.

 

[Snakeoil]

I should have clarified the application. Cartridge is .30-06 shot out of an '03 Spfld. I'm loading for a nominal 1600 fps velocity. Bullets are gas checked Saeco 315. So gas cutting should not be an issue.

 

[fiver]

moly has to be applied through impact coating.
in other words you gotta round off all the corners to get it to adhere to the bullet.

if I were gonna go to all the trouble HbN is the way I'd go.
it's hexon boron nitride, the replacement for moly.

having said that,,,, my main lube uses Moly as a solid agent.
where I live low humidity is the norm, and the chances of moisture being trapped under the moly coating is very slim.

for your low velocity application I wouldn't really bother with any of them unless you just want clean bullets to deal with.
plain old lead will do what you want with the least effort and time for the results.

 

[Snakeoil]

Interesting. So you are saying no lube at all. Hmmm... that would sure simplify things. I have 100 bullets ready with gas checks installed for this coming weekend. Maybe we will take the lube-free approach when I load on Saturday.

 

[Ian]

Um, no. You still need lube for that plain old lead.

 

[Brad]

That has check alone will not stop gas cutting. Lube helps fill in small gaps in the fit and prevents cutting in that manner.

Try maybe 5 rounds with no lube and just moly. Let us know how it does.

 

[CZ93X62]

Heresy alert, up front.

I have never tried molybdenum sulfide coating--seemed like a PITA for very little net gain to me, and I ran a LOT of 223 and 22-250 J-words. The premise I recall that justified that PITA was the reduction of jacket fouling in bores. I guess IMR now has powder formulations that purport to accomplish this same mission.

It was with that same sense of doubt that I approached the whole bullet-painting and powder-coating question. At this point, I should probably COUGH UP my biases to help illustrate my point. A good portion of my past career was spent in the weapons training venues of LE, and in crimes-against-persons investigations venues. My shop was large enough to need such specializations, but at the time not so large as to allow for exclusive assignments. Everybody wore lots of hats. I was (and am) also a hunter--and have been for over 50 years. I have a pretty good idea of what bullets can and can't do in real-world taskings.

It didn't take long for me to figure out that the trade reps from the ammo makers were--to not put a fine point on it--LIARS. A few other terms outside the bounds of decency and site regs here also apply, but if you think "Used car salesman at a down-at-the-heels edge-of-town car lot"--you'll know the flavor. So--I view just about any pronouncement from ammo/bullet/powder/primer makers as bovine excrement until disproven as such.

I am not a complete doubter, though. Nosler Partition bullets work as advertised, as do Barnes TSX bullets (the Condor Cuddlers). I have seen the results myself, and/or have heard the results from people who work in the real world and pass along their observations, and I trust their judgement and assessments.

A lot of those people reside herein at A&SBC. A number of them have reported success and satisfaction with the performances of powder-coated castings in their firearms. I think--based on their assessments--that powder-coating is the real deal. I think in some segments of this hobby field it offers distinct advantages over conventional lube-in-groove cast bullets. Powder-coating has the GREAT advantage (in my mind, anyway....) of never having been exhorted by a mainstream ammo/component maker, too. Those people and their ads REALLY put The Stink on any concept or object they approach, AFAIC.

I have not (yet) taken up PC-ing. I likely won't. Will PC come to dominate cast bullet shooting to the exclusion of conventional lube-in-groove bullets? I don't know. PC sure can allow some impressive accuracy at higher-than-normal cast bullet velocities. For 30-06 at 1600 FPS with a bullet already using a GC, I don't know that PC has any advantage over 50/50 BW/Alox other than less mess afield. Exposed filled lube grooves can be a PITA in the real world.

PC certainly has merit--for some folks, in some venues. That is a decision for each hobbyist to make in his or her own way, kinda like handgun grips or holster designs.

 

[Pistolero]

Federal had their Nyclad years ago, and now they are selling what appears to be a PCed bullet line.
They seem ahead of the other ammo makers on this topic, and perhaps their experience with Nyclad
gave them a more open mind on the subject.

I have yet to try PC, but I do have an old toaster oven sitting on the shelf which would make an
ideal cooker.....I think. What is a good source for a small quantity of this magic dust, given that I
will not abide lime green or lipstick red bullets, just seems wrong to me. Grey or black or something
a bit more normal. I understand the airsoft BB application, I believe. Not clear whether you have to
stand them carefully on their bases and put in the oven....sounds neigh onto impossible task to me,
so must be a way I haven't heard of arranging them for baking.

And I can personally attest to the efficacy of the Nosler Partition, excellent results IME, and I
have limited experience with the Barnes TSX, but outstanding both in accy and game performance.
And the VERY results oriented owner of the hunting lodge where we hunted in RSA was
very much a Barnes fan, too. He used some of my 7x57 TSX ammo on a few animals while I
was there. I saw the TSX that I had loaded for him after it had taken down a kudu at 200
meters. It looked like the photos in the ad, but with one petal slightly broken.
He said that it was the most accurate ammo he had ever used in his 7x57, by a large
margin, which was nice to hear.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Hi-Tek is a liquid epoxy coating commercially sold for DIY bullet casters, and there's a commercial bullet supplier in Australia IIRC that produces epoxy-coated bullets for the SASS crowd. Also I remember some bullet supplier from I believe Lousiana that offered/s commercial coated cast bullets. I'm now sure how the powder paint thing came about but it does work well as a substitute for ordinary lubrication on cast bullets of all types. Currently I'm not sure anyone other than Federal is producing ammunition loaded with painted lead bullets.

 

[Ian]

@Pistolero , read THIS

 

[Brad]

Bill, I am coating with NO bb and I do not stand my bullets up. I swirl and shake in a cool whip container, dump onto my mesh covered baking racks, and shake bullets into a single layer.
I do have a PID controlling my oven and I bake at 400 F for 30 minutes. Dump onto a screen to cool and move them around a bit in case some stuck.

Like anything it has some learning curve. I don’t know that it will replace traditional lube on all applications for me but I do like the fact it leaves a gun far cleaner than traditional lube. Not having wax and grease blown all over the innerds is a plus to me.

I can send you some to try Bill, just let me know.

 

[Ian]

I don’t know that it will replace traditional lube on all applications for me

I think most of us feel about like that. For me personally, I have done enough shooting with coated bullets to say with complete confidence that powder coating via the shake/bake method CAN replace traditional lube in all applications, and give equal or better results in most of them.

 

[fiver]

Bayou bullets is the importer for the cross linked polymer coating [Hi-Tek] they also sell cast bullets already coated.

Hi-Tek Supercoat Powder - 15 oz. Container

hi-performancebulletcoatings.com

david tubb sells the HbN stuff and a coating kit to apply it.

powder coat has it's applications and uses and it will help repair some problems that otherwise only jacketed bullets could cover up.
is it worth the extra time?
in some instances the answer is most definitely yes.
if I have to run them through my lube sizer anyway, and I'm not using the coating for a specific application, then I don't need it.

 

[Rick H]

I experimented with, and used (use) moly in Jkt. bullets in 7mm mag. Kroil and J-B Paste seems to handle the cleaning duties. I push Hornady 162 gr. SPBT's at just under 3000 fps. and they are accurate and flat shooting. Deadly on the mule deer, antelope and whitetails I have used it on. Probably overkill for any of them but it is nice to have a 300+ point blank range when hunting out west.
I developed the moly coated load back in the late 90's and used it for a couple of Western hunts. I will continue to use it because it works and I'm too lazy to work up another hunting load for the rifle. It is a pain to apply, load, and clean but I don't shoot the 7mm mag all that much. I wouldn't use it for cast, particularly when PC is cheaper and easier to work with and known to be effective.

Most of my hunting is done with other rifles these days.

 

[Snakeoil]

Well, I was away for the day and I see things have picked up.

Okay, moly is out. Too bad because I find elegance in simplicity. Moly working would have been truly an elegant solutions. Currently, I'm using Paul Matthews' BP lube for my 06. I'm doing this for two reasons. First, it's already in the Lubrisizer. and second, it flows nicely with no need for a heater. Actually, there is a 3rd reason. It works pretty damn good.

The downside is it is a messy. Excess lube squirts onto the plunger of the sizer and I have to wipe every base off after I size/lube it. Every time I touch a bullet, my fingers are like a 5 year old's at a birthday party. This means any loaded case I pick up gets lube on it and has to be wiped off. If I were Felix Unger, I suppose cleaning my hands after touching every bullet and wiping down every case I load would be considered part of the fun. But I'm not and it's not.

John, aka Sendaro, is looking for a one size fits all lube and I understand his desires. Matthews lube does not fix the first shot flyer issue, but it does get the job done, both with smokeless and BP once you throw a few downrange. I'm not hunting with these guns. So, a perfect first shot is not a requirement. I'm shooting targets or denting metallic silhouettes of various shapes at various distances and sighters are part of the process, just like warm-up laps are part of the racing process.

I might just try PC. The trick is to be able to do a large batch of bullets and be done with them. In have a PC shop not far from where I live. I'll see if there area any tricks they can share. Might be able to con them out of a small amount of PC. I'm thinking copper PC might make for some fun at the club, where jacketed bullets are prohibited. Gold might be even better. Silver it out, cuz I'm not wearing a baby-blue outfit and a mask.

Fiver, you had me all excited about being able to shoot lead bullets without any lube. I'm a bit perturbed over the disappointment that this will not be possible. I will be finding out where you live and speaking with the Tartaglia brothers about a road trip. Otherwise, have a great day.

 

[fiver]

if your adventurous enough, and that lube is as wet as you say you could get by lubing every third-fourth one or so.
I have seen strings of up to 20 rounds fired with no lube in the groove of the bullet.

at the very least I would be firming up your lube and using something like a heat gun, hair dryer, or lamp to get it to flow.
sloppy lube has turned some very nice ammo into poor shotgun patterns with a slight temperature change more than once for me.

if you are shooting in a broad range of temperatures powder coat is definitely worth taking a look at.
just be aware if you took the time to fit the bullet to your rifle you are now changing those diameters and things will change enough for new load workup's.

 

[Ian]

Sednaro is looking for the same unicorn that many people have both independently and in semi-organized groups. In all cases that I know of, nobody succeded fully. Some came really close. I was one who came close by trying to duplicate a homemade lube invented by someone else who was mistaken about one ingredient and wouldn't disclose the other fully. In the end I tried PC to solve an unrelated problem, which it did, then started pushing it really hard, one thing lead to another and now it's just about all I use. This after five years of research and experimenting with traditional lube as documented in a 3,000-page thread somewhere. What I'm saying is PC is worth a go if you want (or don't want) certain things.

 

[Hawk]

I have LBT blue in my lube sizer and I have made a bunch if batchs of custom lube, but have not shot anything out of my pistols in over two years that haven't been PC'ed.
I also PC all of the cast rifle bullets that I shoot in my 7.62x40 WT.

 

[mattw]

I am shooting Lyman 225438's in my 22 TCM 1911 at around 1900 FPS. These are gas checked and powder coated and have not leaded once at that velocity in the pistol.