Fumes from old powder flammable?

[glassparman]

Ok so I had this large cardboard Hercules style keg from old gunpowder. I was putting powder of unknown types in the canister when I would pull down old ammo.

The canister was in my shop and somehow caused a fire. The shop was fully open and nothing was going on at the time.

My question is, does old powder give off vapors that could light off if there was some sort of spark nearby, like from electrical?

I know, I know, I shouldn't have kept it setting around. I was literally going to dispose of it this weekend. I just can't figure out what set it off. I was in the garage just hanging out, went in the house to get the biscuits my wife had just made. I wasn't gone 5 minutes then I heard some popping and ran back out. The popping was some loose rounds going off that were on the workbench near where the powder canister was setting.

By the time I got out there, the inside was fully engulfed. The fireman said it looked like it started behind my computer at the outlet strip. The powder keg was a couple feet from that.

I think a spark from the outlet strip or something set off vapor from the powder keg.

At any rate, flash fire so everything in metal cabinets was spared. Unfortunately, my '65 Fairlane I was restoring is gone.

Anyone else have experience with flash fires from those old Hercules cardboard powder kegs or any other similar mishap? I think it was a 15 pounder.

Mike

 

[fiver]

I've seen 2 of those outlet strips just start smoking and glowing if they have more than 12-15 amps being drawn on them.
they probably [I'm positive they] would have went up in a blaze if I hadn't of seen them in time.

IIRC the recall accurate had just before hodgdon took over their distribution mentioned something about those powders potentially breaking down far enough to auto ignite.
IMO it was because of the solvents/nitrous in them reacting with the oxygen in the air since any rounds loaded with them weren't affected by the recall.

 

[Joshua]

Wow! So glad that nobody got hurt. That is a big loss of good stuff!

Anyone else have experience with flash fires from those old Hercules cardboard powder kegs or any other similar mishap? I think it was a 15 pounder.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about it. “Nitrocellulose deteriorates with time, yielding acidic byproducts. Those byproducts catalyze further deterioration, increasing its rate. The released heat, in case of bulk storage of the powder, or too large blocks of solid propellant, can cause self-ignition of the material. Single-base nitrocellulose propellants are hygroscopic and most susceptible to degradation; double-base and triple-base propellants tend to deteriorate more slowly.”

Basically a little bad powder added to some good powder, will make a bunch of bad powder, that will then self ignite.

Again, glad you weren’t sitting next to it when it went off.

 

[462]

Ditto nobody was hurt. Stuff can be replaced.

 

[Rick]

Wow that's horrible. Glad no one got hurt.

 

[Ian]

That has to be near record time for a fire department response.

I've been lucky so far and never had any powder deteriorate to the point of auto-ignition. I don't tend to keep really old powder around and anything that gets accidentally mixed or is unidentifiable immediately goes out to fertilize the weeds.

 

[CZ93X62]

Jeez! So sorry to read this.

 

[Winelover]

I keep a non working up right freezer in my reloading room for storing storing one pound containers of powders I plan on using frequently. These one pounders are filled from larger containers kept underground in a detached garage. About a year ago, I noticed a acrid like smell when I opened the freezer door. The white plastic of the interior was yellowing. Some of the metal caps on the plastic bottles were starting to rust. Checked each and every container and any powder that didn't smell right got tossed in the weeds out back. Mostly, old powders that were purchased for testing and never made it any farther than that...........so no jugs were affected. Caps stopped rusting and acrid smell went away after ventilation.

 

[L Ross]

I'd be much more suspicious of the power strip than the old keg.

 

[JonB]

I'd be much more suspicious of the power strip than the old keg.

Me too,
If the power strip got hot enough to melt and ignite.
what all was plugged into power strip?
was there any other flammables (like gun cleaner) near the power strip, where a power strip fire could accelerate quickly? Cuz 5 minutes...JUST WOW.

another thought, wood working equipment? Saw dust fire?

With that said, I am rethinking the power strip where I plug in my Lee 4-20...because I also plug in the window AC unit there too.
ALSO, I am on my way to the reloading room right now, to dispose of my container of mixed/pulled powder...there is a couple lbs of powder, some was pulls from WWII foreign ammo.

Lastly, What a major loss, I hope insurance covers some of that. But since no one was hurt/killed, that is a blessing.

 

[Ian]

Plastic body filler and primer dust may have been a factor too, especially if it settled behind things that don't get cleaned regularly and could actually have filtered INTO the power strip through the prong holes.

This had me thinking hard last night about my own stuff too. Will be going through the powder magazine with a fine-tooth comb and possibly eliminating two power strips in the shop, one of which has a failing rocker switch.

 

[Joshua]

I have some older powder that I will definitely be moving up to the front of the line. Use it up while it’s still in good shape.

 

[L Ross]

Ok so I had this large cardboard Hercules style keg from old gunpowder. I was putting powder of unknown types in the canister when I would pull down old ammo.

The canister was in my shop and somehow caused a fire. The shop was fully open and nothing was going on at the time.

My question is, does old powder give off vapors that could light off if there was some sort of spark nearby, like from electrical?

I know, I know, I shouldn't have kept it setting around. I was literally going to dispose of it this weekend. I just can't figure out what set it off. I was in the garage just hanging out, went in the house to get the biscuits my wife had just made. I wasn't gone 5 minutes then I heard some popping and ran back out. The popping was some loose rounds going off that were on the workbench near where the powder canister was setting.

By the time I got out there, the inside was fully engulfed. The fireman said it looked like it started behind my computer at the outlet strip. The powder keg was a couple feet from that.

I think a spark from the outlet strip or something set off vapor from the powder keg.

At any rate, flash fire so everything in metal cabinets was spared. Unfortunately, my '65 Fairlane I was restoring is gone.

Anyone else have experience with flash fires from those old Hercules cardboard powder kegs or any other similar mishap? I think it was a 15 pounder.

Mike

View attachment 22906

Glassparman, please accept my condolences on this disaster. If there is any consolation, your sharing this is causing a number of us to take stock and reevaluate some of our practices. Thank you for alerting us.

 

[glassparman]

L Ross, yeah, us too throughout. We have removed all the outlet strips in the house.
It freaked out my 18 yo daughter more than me. The new rule is now that if it is not in use, unplug it. We have eliminated ALL adapters, strips and lightweight extension cords. The picture below shows the roll around cabinet my father built in the early 60's when I was little. I used to play in it and it still has the drill press on it that he used. I almost lot that but it appears as if it just needs a new top wood and some paint.

I hate the idea of loosing family heirloom stuff.

 

[L Ross]

I don't know why I would be suspicious of power strips, after all I am sure they are all designed and made in the USA by highly qualified electrical workers that take safety and quality control as more than just buzz words.

 

[Ian]

I don't know why I would be suspicious of power strips, after all I am sure they are all designed and made in the USA by highly qualified electrical workers that take safety and quality control as more than just buzz words.

Oh yes, ALL made in the U. S. A. and no doubt rigorously certified by Underwriters Laboratory.

I'm thinking a round of Sub Sandwiches and cookies might be in order for the fire crew. I know fire/smoke/water damage always ends up being worse to mitigate than it first appears, but ten more minutes unattended and you'd be cleaning up the slab with a skid-steer loader instead of doing a gut/remodel. Sorry about the car, that really sucks. Looks like the shop was recently built with that project specifically in mind.

 

[glassparman]

Yes, garage was two years old but built for reloading and collection of vintage Ammo/Military stuff. I did start on the car in May. Without trying to discount what happened, I do have an almost complete parts car out back. That will be the new project. It is actually worth more because the car that burned was a '65 For Fairlane 2 Dr hardtop but the parts car is exactly the same but a sports coupe with bucket seats and console!

Yes, I was home due to Covid. If I would have been at work, it would have been a bulldoze job. Most of my reloading stuff was in those metal cabinets and was spared including all the new powder!

Really the keg just created a flash fire and anything that was flammable and exposed, burned. Stuff like shop manuals and old books laying out like reloading manuals and such.

 

[Ian]

Lots of silver lining to your very unfortunate fire. I'm not an insurance investigator but I do think it would be best not to volunteer a whole lot about the powder keg, especially if the FD is leaning towards an electrical origin. I can visualize some snowflake, third-party adjuster freaking out and findingbsome way to deny coverage over "illegal, hazardous material storage" or some such tripe.

 

[L Ross]

Lots of silver lining to your very unfortunate fire. I'm not an insurance investigator but I do think it would be best not to volunteer a whole lot about the powder keg, especially if the FD is leaning towards an electrical origin. I can visualize some snowflake, third-party adjuster freaking out and findingbsome way to deny coverage over "illegal, hazardous material storage" or some such tripe.

And not good menudo tripe either.

 

[fiver]

that's a sweet workbench.
add a piece of 1/8" plate to the top and you got a bench that'd be workable for almost anything a home shop could really do.