Gas check testing

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
Gator/Sage checks do not crimp on, and if a bullet needs to be pulled may times the check and the powder remain in the case.
My innate frugalness caused me to buy some Sage checks, but when they are gone I'll be going back to Hornady. Some brands of things just perform better than other brands and are, therefore, better values.

I hardly ever pull bullets, I've loaded. Occasionally, a split neck will make it to the seating stage. I feel the difference in resistance, while seating, then dismantle that round. I've been shooting Gators and Sage's checks for quite a few years. Mostly in my carbines......9 mm, 357 & 44 Magnum. My backyard range is a sand berm. I recover all my lead. Gas checks are still on most of the recovered bullets..............and it takes side cutters to remove them.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Gator/Sage checks do not crimp on, and if a bullet needs to be pulled may times the check and the powder remain in the case.
My innate frugalness caused me to buy some Sage checks, but when they are gone I'll be going back to Hornady. Some brands of things just perform better than other brands and are, therefore, better values.
Ya know, you're right! I've been happy with Hornady and I forgot about the added joy of checks in the necks of pulled down rounds. Tipping them with a dental pick then extracting them with a forceps. I'll just "bite the bullet" and get more Hornady checks.
Thanks 462
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
I hardly ever pull bullets, I've loaded. Occasionally, a split neck will make it to the seating stage. I feel the difference in resistance, while seating, then dismantle that round. I've been shooting Gators and Sage's checks for quite a few years. Mostly in my carbines......9 mm, 357 & 44 Magnum. My backyard range is a sand berm. I recover all my lead. Gas checks are still on most of the recovered bullets..............and it takes side cutters to remove them.
I will add that aside from a kenitic, I cannot even pull my PC bullets. The buggers are simply too slick!! I dont even try!!!

CW
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
I don't even own one of those impact/ hammer pullers. Just use side cutters on cast, remelt later. Collet pullers for J-words.
I have a Frankfort Arsenal. Little blue hammer puller.
My son is fascinated with it, and always looking for something to do. I pull a Tom Sawyer on him.
Just give the boy my mistakes and let him go at it.He hands me back the components.
Easy as pie.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Made my impact tool from PVC pipe, worked till it broke. Now just wire stripper and maybe some PVC pipe for shorter stuff - press for longer rifle case. 40sw is a pain for soft alloy. Collet tool for Jacketed. SS press so if neck tension is bad (or shaving lead), set aside and pull later - won't shoot right anyway.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I've been making my own 'checks in 22, 30 and 35 for several years now on Charlie Darnall's Freechex III makers using Yonkies aluminum coil stock, purchased from Gil, stateside. That's not a "plug," rather to make clear what tools/components are behind my results.

I never cared for using gas checks any more than absolutely necessary, but as I pared things down and started shooting (more) rifle loads with cast, that changed. My Hornady "crimp-on" experience is limited but all good.

A few prominent things I have noticed over several years: (my experience based on an accuracy goal of five shots into half an inch at fifty yards)
1) sizing nose-first has made a definite difference in seating the 'check, but not always before the 'check starts to get squished onto the sides of the bullet, so sometimes the 'checked bases look like a dimple instead of being flat. They are consistent and, to my surprise, don't seem to cause accuracy issues.

2) Sizing base-first doesn't seat the 'check as reliably, but the bases come out really purty and smooth, if not in contact with the base of the bullet.

3) Going the extra mile of plaqing a 1" square plate over the opening of the die, and (base-first) pushing the check against it with the bullet, then removing the plate and pushing the bullet (base-first) through the die resolves the two previous issues.

4) Annealing the 'checks makes a big difference and makes either base-first or nose-first somewhat more OK, but seating the 'check against the little plate first STILL makes it even better. The plus, I guess, is that an annealed 'check grabs the bullet much better and cannot be pulled off with my fingers. It's hard enough to pull it off when I have not annealed, but I can sometimes - not so when they are annealed. The annealed 'checks "look" better on the bullet base than non-annealed.

5) The square-edged Hornadys don't seem to shoot any better than my round-edged aluminum.

I did very limited testing recently in my 222, trying to figure out why it s hot half-inch five-shot groups at 50 yards with the first and second loads tried, but will only shoot that into 1" now. I replicated the original loads down to the "T" and had thought it was the aluminum 'checks, but my notes told me otherwise. The smallest groups I shot with it were aluminum. I tried both with identical loads - no difference, so - it must just be ME shooting 1" groups instead of half-inch groups. Nothing else has changed.

When I say "annealed" 'checks, some here might argue that I didn't really anneal them. Regardless, they ARE much softer after I do to them what I do to them. On an untreated 22 'check, I CANNOT squish one between my thumb and forefinger and fold it in half. After the treatment, I can very easily fold one in half that way. I lay as many 'checks, base-down on an electric hot-plate (cold) and then set it to "high." After fifteen minutes, the 'checks read 400F using a cheap K-Type TC on a cheap multi-meter. I turn it off and let them cool. Once I've done this, they are definitely MUCH softer and much easier to seat fully, seat squarely and grip the sides of the bullet. They are also not .001" larger than the bullet after sizing, like with untreated 'checks. I'm not looking to cause a debate on how hot aluminum must be for how long to become annealed. I'm reporting my observations. Those thin little cups are quite stiff (probably from work-hardening) without this treatment and very much NOT hard thereafter. They don't even change color. The only way to know is to try to squish one.

I do find mangled 'checks in the dirt behind my target. I do not find bullets still wearing 'checks which have passed through the cardboard target + 7/16" OSB. I do NOT find 'checks in front of the target, nor do I find "extra holes" in the target. I do not find any 'checks in the grass or dirt between the muzzle and the target and have never (shouldn't have said that) had a 'check hit the chronograph at ten feet.

I'm not saying I'm doing anything right or "better" than anyone, rather I am sharing observations in the hope it may be beneficial to others.

As far as those "lifetime supplies" of gas checks, yeah, I fell for that one too, but I didn't sell my 'check-makers. I THOUGHT about it! Between supplying my brother and a very good friend with cast bullets, and what little I get to shoot, that "lifetime supply" didn't last long, especially for 35s and very much so for 30s. When those two finally listen to me and start shooting their 30-30s with cast, I'll be in trouble. Dumb me, I pretty much sold them both on the advantages of a 357 Mag carbine and now they need bullets. The good part is that they do things for me and this is one way I can actually reciprocate.

My accuracy standard may be a bit lax compared to others', but I've achieved it very easily with the guns I'm shooting, my first loads turning out just what I wanted. In either the 222 or 30-30 (1200 to 1850 fps for either) , I'm using between 6.0 and 7.5 grains of Unique, or 5.2 to 5.5 grains of W231/HP38. Nothing but GCs in the 222, but GCs on only the 165 grain RDO in the 30-30. Those are for the heavier loads I've never even shot yet but do wonders at target/small game velocities. In the 357 Mag, zero issues using 180 grain WFNs to just over 1800 fps.

It may all be a pain in the neck, but it's something else I don't have to worry about being backordered or out of stock - I can make them when I want them and the tooling should last me forever.

FYI, I believe that so many of us bought "lifetime supplies" of coil stock when we started doing this that there were a lot of options available through Gil, but Yonkie has scaled way back what he ships here for Gil to stock, so if you have a special thickness, you may need to go directly to Yonkie. Gil may be able to ge it shipped to him with other stuff to defray some shipping, but I don't know for sure. Gil is one straight-up guy and has helpoed me out a lot, so if anyone hasn't dealt with him, give him a shot. This is not to be a shill for Gil, rather to point others to someone who is a great resource, has good material and is very easy to work with - very accommodating.
 

4and1

Member
Jeff, good post. I too am pursuing the best accuracy I can find with 30 caliber cast. I think a cast bullet has plenty of issues that hurt accuracy, but the base/gas check/seating is a big one. Anything other than a truly flat base that is dead nutz square will degrade accuracy. I seat checks in a separate operation with a die I made that is bored and reamed to bullet diameter, bottom of the die is machined square in the same setup, and has a small cut at the base the check will fit in. I pave a punch that fits in from the top. I have been using an arbor press, place the bullet in the check then in the die, and put a fair amount of pressure on the bullet to seat the check on the bullet. Then the bullet is pushed into the sizing die base first, that bottoms out on a ground square stop, with pressure again. I think the check "bellows" out a bit when crimped, I can measure the bullet with the check seated, then again once it is crimped on, and it's .001" longer. ( I sized the bullet before seating the check, so it wasn't from sizing the bullet) If someone has a better way of accurately seating a check, I would love to hear it. If there were some way to seat the check on the bullet perfectly square under pressure then crimp while held in that position, would be ideal.

I will definitely take a stab at annealing the checks, that is very interesting.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Pretty much just use hornady GC as I do have plenty. I install with bigger Lee sizer, PC tumble and bake standing on GC. Then resize to what I want. Cooking actually does 'anneal' the GC some. I tried the gas pipe/tissue thing and didn't like it. My moulds are all FN so using a plate against the nose in the press makes it easy to seat them 'flat'. Last mould I had the shank cut small so GC fit without cutting the sides of the shank.
 

4and1

Member
Hi popper. I powder coat too. I size and gc, clean and then pc, standing up. The only annealing I have done is on cartridge brass necks, and I heated them until a dull red in a dark room, then quenched. I think the idea is to anneal before installing the check so it grips without any spring back. I don't think I have an electric hot plate, we have gas. I think I'll have to lay a piece of flat steel on a burner and heat them that way. It's definitely worth a try!
 

Ian

Notorious member
@4and1 , these bullets had the checks seated ant partially crimped with a Lyman 45 lubrisizer using the check seating tool from the 450 unit. I use a well-fitting top punch and brass shim stock to ensure the H-die aligns with the top punch. Then the bullets are pushed through a Lee sizer to size the bullet body and finish crimping the check. Then they are cleaned and powder coated (I pick, tap, and place on their bases but only very recently started wiping the bases before placing on foil to bake). Immediately after cooling from coating I nose-first size in a Lyman 45 using a full-form H-sizing die, I-ejector with nose form turned into the end, and flat top punch of my own making.

100 yards, 2,460 FPS from an 18" LR-308, around 50,000 PSI. Shot groups like this every day for weeks:

20190320_183414.jpg
Occasionally I get the hold right and get wallet groups:

20190310_184931.jpg

20190327_183318.jpg
 

Ian

Notorious member
having square, solid bases is essential to accuracy at high velocity and pressure. Here's a .223 bullet I trapped in oiled sawdust showing the error of the bullet caster's ways...hidden void just under the base.

20190623_214446.jpg
 

4and1

Member
Ian, good info, and good shooting! You do as I do, size before and after PC. I'm interested in why you wipe the check clean of powder before baking. Do you find the coating uneven on them? I tap them too to shake off any excess. I use tweezers to pick up the bullets after the dry powder, hwo do you clean off the base? I'm about ready to shake up a bunch and bake, maybe I'll try that. I'll also have a good hard look at some old ones at the coating of the base.

I don't drive the bullets as fast as you, I'm running just below 2000, but that's where my gun shoots best. I have pushed them faster in testing, but accuracy suffered. I have shot benchrest for a very long time, and tuning a gun is paramount. It takes both powder charge and seating depth to get it right.

I was having trouble with my mold not cutting a clean base, some had a hump on it some had a void. The sprue was tight, but I found the tapered hole was not sharp to the bottom, as was tearing the base. Once I sharpened the holes and honed the sprue plate, it's cutting real nice now.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
you can crack the sprue plate open early to get a nice clean base.
but you run the risk of smearing lead on the mold, and not letting the bullet suck enough alloy in doing that.
 

Rockydoc

Well-Known Member
Jeff, Nice post. Very useful info.
I have a question regarding annealing gas checks. Does your technique work for both aluminum as well as copper?
 

Ian

Notorious member
I'm interested in why you wipe the check clean of powder before baking. Do you find the coating uneven on them? I tap them too to shake off any excess. I use tweezers to pick up the bullets after the dry powder, hwo do you clean off the base? I'm about ready to shake up a bunch and bake, maybe I'll try that. I'll also have a good hard look at some old ones at the coating of the base.

When I started in on the .223 project with powder coated bullets I found a slight accuracy advantage to wiping the powder off of the gas check before baking. I do the Airsoft BB/plastic container shake thing to apply the powder. I was getting lines and wrinkles on the bases from the crinkles in the foil so I tried sanding that off and got about 1/4 MOA imorovement. After that I got a piece of open cell eurathane foam and wipe the powder off while holding the bullet with needle nose pliers before placing on the foil. Haven't done any shooting with the wiped .30-caliber bullets yet to see if it makes any difference. I'm so happy being able to consistently put ten in under 1.5 MOA with an ultralight autoloading rifle at full jacketed velocity that I really haven't done any further refinement. That rifle is used for pig hunting mostly and 13-14 bhn hollowpoint bullets get the job done quite well at high speed.