Granular fillers, your experience?

[Chris]

I bedded a Ruger #3 in .45/70 that made patterns, not groups. The good news is it worked, she now shoots adequately enough to test some loads, 1-2" at 50 yards.

I have never used the granular poly shotshell buffer as manufactured by BPI and others. Any of you guys use it? Under which conditions do you find benefit?

In .45/70 with 400 cast, a couple scenarios: 24 gr 2400, 40 gr 3031, 12 gr Unique. These are typical of what I shoot in a Marlin, which ones would the buffer benefit the most by fully occupying case air space? I'm thinking to try it with 3031 which is a bit slow for the cartridge and somewhat dirty.

I can see the buffer protecting plain base bullets and extending the velocity at which they can be shot.

I have a mind to try it but would like to hear from any who have used it.

 

[RicinYakima]

While I have not used it in years, at one time did some work with them. I think the product was called Puf-Lon? I never found it useful with double based powders with nitroglycerin, like 2400 and Unique. However it worked well when trying to get the heavily coated surplus powders to ignite by heavy compression with fillers. But it got to the point the work and cost made it better to just buy the proper powder. It also worked with IMR3031 in the 45-90 and 50-90 with loads that matched black powder speeds. IMR 3031 worked great if you put enough in to get pressures up to burn, but the recoil was more than I wanted. By the early 90's I was hooked on SR 4759 and never needed fillers again. HTH, Ric

 

[Chris]

Thanks, Ric. I can talk myself out of this quickly, the stuff costs about the same as powder.

 

[Ian]

I'm with Ric, done basically the same things except I ended up with RX-7 and Dacron instead of 4759 in the 45/90. 3031 will stompify you even in the 45/70 by the time you get it to burn well. RX-7 and cream-o-wheat that's been tumbled with colloidal graphite would work pretty well at 105% compression in the 45/70.

I wrote and article on buffers and fillers in the read-only section outlining my limited experiences with them if you want my take on the general situation.

 

[Maven]

"I have never used the granular poly shotshell buffer as manufactured by BPI and others. Any of you guys use it? Under which conditions do you find benefit?"

Chris, I've used it in the past, but always in small amounts, e.g., 0.3cc - 1.0cc (Lee Dippers) in bottle necked cases, with milsurp powders, e.g. WC 860, and LR Mag. primers. And yes, it was effective in that it lowered ES's and SD's and because it raised pressure, left less unburned powder behind, especially when using CB's between 175gr. - 205gr. (.30cals. & 8mm Mau.). Although you must compress it so it doesn't migrate into your powder charge, be careful about over compression so it doesn't form a solid plug. Btw, I have a .45-70, but never saw a reason to use it in that cartridge, and never with something as slow burning as WC 860.

 

[Chris]

3031 will stompify you even in the 45/70 by the time you get it to burn well

Mr. Keith's favorite load of 400 grain over 53/3031 would not be his favorite if he shot it from a 6 1/2 pound Ruger #3 with a crescent buttplate. I'll bet you on that one. Does burn pretty clean though.

 

[Ian]

42 grains under a 535 Postell in a 13.5 lb Shiloh 1874 45/90 was plenty enough for me. Not too bad sitting with cross sticks, but would loosen fillings if shot from the bench.

 

[freebullet]

Never done it, think id switch powder before trying it. Eliminating headaches is more my line. Watching with interest.

 

[fiver]

I'd just go with a gas check and a filler in the 45-70 before using a buffering agent.
the buffer is added to the bullets weight since it goes down the barrel too.
it has it's place as a base protector...but I'd be using it somewhere else, the 45-70 has too many other options.

 

[Brad]

24 gr of 2400 doesn’t need any changes. I would just load it and go shoot

 

[Bret4207]

I don't recall if I used the granulated stuff, although I know I have some, but I have used dacron pillow stuffing to hold small amounts of powder back near the primer. It works, smells awful and always made me a trifle nervous using it.

 

[358156 hp]

I experimented with granular fillers in the old "Super Grex" days. Even though I didn't have any issues with it, I too felt a bit uneasy, and ended up going to other powders, components & even calibers to get away from it. I still have some BPI filler around here, and if you were local I'd just give it to you.

 

[fiver]

okay,,, lets make the distinction between a filler and a buffer.

a filler is something like Dacron it just floofs out and fills in air space.
it is used to hold the powder in place against the primer.
it changes and compresses and is counted as powder weight.

a buffer is a solid material.
it also fills space but it stays a solid the same size and volume clear to the muzzle.
it becomes part of the bullets weight.

 

[Eutectic]

Chris....
I have played some with Winchester "Super Grex" as a filler. I would be careful with it...

Things not pleasing for me? It raises pressures... Maybe better put it changes the time pressure curve I think.... It will 'slug up' the base of a cast bullet which could be a problem? I would only do it in light loads.

Things I liked? It uniforms the load. It cleans up un-burnt powder. It uniforms bore condition as in C.O.R.E. It will let you use a less than optimum bullet lube... It is in the most accurate load my Marlin Model 1894CL .25-20 has even produced cast or jacketed!

Here's a fired bullet base from that very accurate .25-20 load.... Soft load 88gr @1400fps. (9 grs 1680) Base was flat when loaded.

Pete

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

I have used Dacron as a filler a couple of times. So minimal personal experiance.
Since it is not a solid. Will the force it produces to the powder be decreased over a period of time? An example. You load a quantity of rounds for future use (1 day, 1 month, 1 year). You store the loaded rounds primer up so the weight of the powder is against the Dacron. My intuition would say when the ammunition is used later the Dacron will have little if any pressure on the powder.

 

[waco]

I only have experience using Dacron. It has yielded good results when used in the proper application.
Never tried any "buffer" material.

 

[fiver]

I don't know if Dacron would take a set like that.
if the rounds were flipped over before firing I would imagine that within a few minutes it would fluff back out again.[just like when you mash it down to put it in the case]
at the worst it would be touching the powder again at, at least the bottom of the column, and the powder would still be positioned against the primer.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

I would think the size of the airspace would have an affect also.

 

[fiver]

yes and the amount of filler used.

I have a load that shoots very well for me that I use a filler of dryer lint in.
it is packed in fairly full but not crammed in tight, there is enough that I see it kind of snow in the scope when I pull the trigger.
I can carry those in my pocket for days on end or even leave them in the door of the truck and I don't see any affect on the target or chronograph.
there simply is no place for the powder to go.

a Dacron load with a floofed up 1/2gr tuft in the 308 case is a matter of not using enough filler to do the job.
2 grs is probably too much.
1 to 1.5grs. is the proper amount.
your completely filling the air space but not making a solid mass at any point in it.

 

[Eutectic]

An old retired vet of both WW1 and WW2 told me many years ago when I was starting out in reloading...... "Load every single round you put together like your life may depend on it!" Three score plus years ago now but I still remember it.
So your fluffs, tuffs, and fuzz balls may work well, from loading block to the range. They have for me... But what happens if the same ammo rides around in your truck for a year or spends 50 years in your basement???

Granulated buffer will accomplish uniformity but you pay a price to get it...... is it worth it?

Even setting around for 50 years can show you things that will surprise you. I've pulled bullets in old reloads of mine and learn from it. I usually want cases, bullets, for something else. NRA formula 50-50 loaded for 30+ years will etch the brass at every lube groove.... And we put it down our barrel!
I've found compressed loads of ball powder caked so tight you can't hardly dig it out of the primed case. Even after the inertia puller should have loosened it?

What do you think a dacron filled reload would look like if you run it in your vibratory tumbler for a half hour and then pulled the bullet??? (especially with ball powder)

No, if I had my choice every single load would be 98-99% full. Sometimes you can have your way: sometimes not!

One of the great unifomers in shotshells not mentioned much is the powder is contained without airspace...... But then some lousy wad fits will again allow powder migration to rear its ugly head!