Growing bullets .....

RBHarter

West Central AR
I know we have touched on this .

A recent fun shoot "1925 rendezvous ala' steampunk" gathering I found the insidious bullet growth . I found that 9mm loaded some 7-8 yr ago had swollen enough that they just won't chamber in the HP clone . This is 200+ 358-124 TLTC they were seated fairly deep with only about half of the top/front band out of the case . I might be able to save them as they were loaded light . I might be able to bump seat and crimp .

45 ACP . The cases have moved also . I had loaded about 350 45 ACP when I scored a 1917 Smith . I had full length sized it all and done a percentage check fit and sized to fit the throats . I found that some of the bullets just didn't shoot well so those were segregated out for the High Point carbine which does .
Like the 9 I loaded this about 6-7 yr ago . 4 yr ago I ran them though a gutted FCD because I had a bunch that were hitting on the head , well below Glockage , and they were fine in both the Smith and Ruger BlackHawk . Now I have .453 front bands at .4545 and they won't go in the Smith . As I don't have to headspace on the mouth and I have a taper crimp I may be able to save these if I can choke the front band down ......or I might just go unload them in the Hi P .

The last victim was a 6.8SPC I recently barreled a Savage in . Having adopted the size for the tightest chamber where more than one resides I've done well in the past and with this one . Same deal here , ammo loaded 6ish yr ago . A percentage check in 2 gas guns says all's well there with 1% hitting the lands enough the mark but not stick . In the bolt had typical firm cam of "not my brass" , then a nope resulting in a stuck bullet . The last round was so big in the bolt gun that a pound cast isn't needed for nose and band dia ....... It's all good I have 3 HS , FC for the gas guns , RP for the 7×6.8 Carcano and I guess the bolt gun will have to be happy with S&B .
These bullets were from 3 batches one alloy lot , it's possible I missed a fat nose or several during my cull , lube , and checking . Lengths were regular , I'm left with growth ........

Water dropped WW and tamper seals 75/25 for the rifle . At 6 months they were 18+ just a little harder than the as cast that was just shy enough to not pencil 18 BHN . They're 24 now , to hard for my intention , but they shoot well high stepping in the gas gun . .279-124 NOE .

I used the tamper seals in all the above . I suppose I'll run jacket and plated cores for the next run of likely long term study . The tamper seals behaved like 20-1 and picked up some copper , but there must be something else in them that is messing with the long term more than the "normal" growth .

I don't know if it's note worthy or not or if it's worth wandering around in there probably aren't a lot of us around that have loaded cast sitting around for 6,7,8 yr .......
Data is data though right ?
 
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JWFilips

Well-Known Member
RB
I always resize based on the age of my cast! I have been surprised all to often... Since I powder coat I find it best to resize old sized bullets before PC and then size again afterwards! Extra work but no surprises
 

Ian

Notorious member
I don't know what causes it but it happens sometimes. I had a bunch that showed dramatic growth, like 1.5-2 thou, in just a few months. I attributed it to a couple of lead theatre curtain weights @ about 50% that otherwise behaved like stick-on wheelweights. I think, but am not certain, that a large coffee can full of battery cable ends mixed into a big batch of alloy did the same thing.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Not sulphur, at least not the batch I treated with it. Sulphur treated, slightly zinked wheelweight metal was some of the best alloy I ever used, but damned near killed myself making it. "I'll just stay upwind".......yeah, turns out it doesn't matter which way the air moves if you're within 20' of the smoldering concoction.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
and picked up some copper

this'll do in about 1 year.
once it forms that boundary layer around the antimony it sorta controls things, but over a bit of time things move around and you lose it.
that's how the more harder than before thing works too.
 

bruce381

Active Member
so what exactly causes the the size to get bigger what metal or contaminate?
Is it copper? Is it corrosion inside or a chemical reaction of something?
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
chuckle,,, all they gotta see is the cake in the store....LOL

no the amount of antimony doesn't make any more or less growth, and it's not really predictable as to the amount of growth either.
the other stuff in the mix also determines how much you get, and IME having a bit of tin in there really helps control the growth by binding the antimony into the alloy better.

what happens with copper is it tags along with the excess antimony in the alloy and then makes a barrier between the antimony and the lead alloy.
the copper itself makes the bullet grow pretty quickly [couple 2-3 months] then it's done, antimony is sneaky it takes longer to do it's thing [9-16 months IME]
if you lock the antimony down and don't speed quench your most likely not going to see enough growth later on to even notice.
if your using a lower tin alloy and quench your going to see more growth .001+/- unless you size the bullets down at a much later stage in it's life.


how Felix put it to me [and I agree] is the best practice would be to make and store the bullets, then size just before using them.
unfortunately where most of the trouble comes in is on the nose of a bore riding type bullet.
if you load and wait, life can get some interesting when you go to chamber them in the rifle.
 

JonB

Halcyon member
fiver,
that sure makes sense to me. my worst cases of bullet growth was with Round nose bullets for 45 acp (Lee's 452-228-1R and Lyman 452374) when they are cast with range scrap (likely very little tin) and loaded soon after casting/sizing, then allowing them to sit on shelf for a year or two or more...then the nose has grown and hits the lands before fully chambered.
 

Hawk

North Central Texas
Holy Cow, Batman!
I cast some bullets for my 40 S&W and 10mm a few years ago (probably four) and sized them to .401. Lubed with LBT Blue.
Got them out today to melt the lube off and powder coat them and they have expanded to .408 or.409.
I don't know of I can even get them back thru my push thru Lee sizer.
Mix is just a ww alloy.
 
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Jeff H

NW Ohio
I have to go back and slowly reread this, but I just want to throw in with the fact that THIS has been driving me NUTS lately and I THOUGHT I WAS going NUTS! I use ONE mic' and one dial caliper on my bench, but keep a pair in the house too. I've been rechecking zeroes, cross-checking between mics', re-slugging dies throats, bores, re-reading loading notes and thinking I'm losing my damned mind!

This is all stuff I've cast two to three years ago, and everything was just grand then - nice groups, no leading, everything chambered fine.....

I don't wish ill on anyone here, but I'm sure glad I'm not the only one, because otherwise, I'd be off my rocker.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I've been back through this again and the bullets I am seeing grow are from the same mongrel alloy I've been using for several years. Maybe I had the "problem" before, but the stuff I was shooting was more tolerant of it.

I have no idea how much antimony (or anything else) is in my "alloy." I have bullets a deceased friend cast at .358" over twenty years ago and they are still dead-on at .358". Just got into those again today because my fat bullets are leading the snot out of a couple guns, which was what really surprised me, because everything was shooting great for quite some time after I cast/sized them.

So, do we go by new Lyman moulds, cast undersized bullets and let them sit until they are "ripe enough" to shoot?:headscratch:
 
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Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Even though I have had it happen.
Every time I come across this thread title, I get this mental image of planting 223 bullets and waiting for the bullet plant to come up, bud, and start producing perfect ripe .358 sized bullets. :)

I have some of that magic ever growing alloy. It takes a while to grow appreciably.
Convinced my problem came from calcium in plumbing pipe which was my main ingredient.
I have just cast it all in bullets, then powder coated them.
Run them thru the sizer now and again. Then keep brass primed and ready to go.
I do not load them till a week or less before I am going to shoot them. Then size right before I load.
Have about 1000 of those darn things left.
 
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Jeff H

NW Ohio
It's not a problem in closed-breech carbines - that I can tell. As long as it chambers, they shoot, don't lead and are accurate.

Since I've jockeyed around a lot on my revolver selection over the last ten years, don't have the contiguous "quality time" to spend with them that I used to, there are larger gaps between casting/shooting shooting sessions. I try to get all my casting done in a couple, maybe three sessions over winter and I've missed a winter here and there, so many of my bullets are "aged." Still, I have shot 30 year old bullets which stayed the sized I (or others) made them.

@fiver , it only took something like ten, fifteen thousand years for agriculture to be wrestled into some level of predictability (aside from "Weeds, Weather and Washington), so who knows? Maybe one of those "bullet bushes" @Mitty38 speaks of is in our future. I'd plant them in rows, along posts and wires, espalier-style for easy harvesting!;)

The alchemist fellas who've spent so much time perfecting bullet lubes (greatly appreciated efforts) would have to get back to work concocting home-brew herbicides, fungicides, fertilizers ans soil-enhancers, while those with lathes and mills will have more work in devising planting, cultivating and harvesting tooling.

Fifty + years of learning the current method isn't enough for me to have figured it out. I'm not sure I'm ready to start all over again.:headbang: