How about we discuss using Lee Tumble Lube cast bullets?
- Thread starter Wallyl
- Start date
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Will take your advice, and use them to help clean out the barrel with, oh after every 5.
No disrespect meant , but...
I learn best by doing then observing,
As long as you don't tell me I am in danger of blowing myself up,
still going on this bass aquards trip, this stubborn old mule just needs to see some things for himself.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
no problems, and I totally understand what your doing.
just sayin life might be easier if you give the half load a try for group at the end of the day.
if you really want to learn something next go-round take all your powders and line them up fastest to slowest.
pick a pressure window say 40-K.
then load steps of powder at that same pressure with the same bullets. [I'd recommend gas checks]
if nothing else the 1422 number will start to make sense, and you'll see why we all giggled when it got brought up.
just sayin life might be easier if you give the half load a try for group at the end of the day.
if you really want to learn something next go-round take all your powders and line them up fastest to slowest.
pick a pressure window say 40-K.
then load steps of powder at that same pressure with the same bullets. [I'd recommend gas checks]
if nothing else the 1422 number will start to make sense, and you'll see why we all giggled when it got brought up.
Ian
Notorious member
32K at .400". That's called hitting a rotten tomato with three-wood. Might survive with a gas check, the bullet will be slugged up so hard it won't be able to skid the rifling. The more it slugs up in that tapered throat (dynamic fit) the higher and sooner the ACTUAL pressure peak will be, one thing the thermodynamic computer model cannot predict. Guys with strain gauge equipment log the 13 grain load at closer ro 40-45,000 PSI.
5.5-6.0 grains of RD is a fun, accurate load in the '06 with plain-based 150-175 grain bullets.
5.5-6.0 grains of RD is a fun, accurate load in the '06 with plain-based 150-175 grain bullets.
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
The 13.0 Red Dot was a recommended load from a well known gun writer. It does work in a lot of guns, oddly enough, if you pick the right bullet, seating depth, etc. It's not a load that puts the bullet up the bore looking anything like the same shape it did when you put it into the case. We refer to it as "Obturation" but I'm told thats not the most accurate way to term what happens when we piss pound a bullet into the throat as a mass of putty. I still have a bag full of '06 with the RCBS 30-180FN and 13.0 RD. They shoot like crap. I blame it on my '03's fouled bore. I should try them in my oldest boys '06 Savage.
Long story made short- If you are going to spend a lot of time worrying over tenths of thousandths and seating depths and producing perfect bullets...you might want a gentler press curve that is kinder to the bullet. I don't think you're going to get near 2400 fps even at 13.5, but 1800 is possible.
Long story made short- If you are going to spend a lot of time worrying over tenths of thousandths and seating depths and producing perfect bullets...you might want a gentler press curve that is kinder to the bullet. I don't think you're going to get near 2400 fps even at 13.5, but 1800 is possible.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Not a golfer but have been to the driving range.
Looking at the red line, and the pressure info . I think it hit me.
I am basically slamming the bullet into the lands. full speed. Since it is made of lead I am mashing the heck out of it on its way.
I am basically starting well above where tumble lube is going to help or any lube without a gas check,(cept maybe PC). Getting into pressure literally destroying the bullet.
I was using the only published info I could find which was for a lube groove type with a gas check.
Bet if it was 30 bhn it would work fine. LOL
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Yeah, 30 Bhn will solve all our problems! I read it on the internet, it's gotta be true!
I think it's clicked for you. Good for you!
Just a thought, I don't know why cast bullets w/o the GC don't shoot great over a certain speed/pressure. There have been a lot of theories over the years. Some we can discount, like the flame melting the base, but some are certainly reasonable sounding. I can tell you this much- the $15 or so bucks you spend on a Lee sizing die to add GC's will pay off quickly. If you want to use a PB to avoid GC cost, then a PB design will almost always work out better than a GC design sans GC. If you really want to shoot PB, consider starting nice a low, say in the 1200 fps area. "Low Node" some here call it. It's a lot more fun shooting light loads and making good groups than it is shooting barn burners that sort of hit the general area of the berm...more or less. Work up from there.
I think it's clicked for you. Good for you!
Just a thought, I don't know why cast bullets w/o the GC don't shoot great over a certain speed/pressure. There have been a lot of theories over the years. Some we can discount, like the flame melting the base, but some are certainly reasonable sounding. I can tell you this much- the $15 or so bucks you spend on a Lee sizing die to add GC's will pay off quickly. If you want to use a PB to avoid GC cost, then a PB design will almost always work out better than a GC design sans GC. If you really want to shoot PB, consider starting nice a low, say in the 1200 fps area. "Low Node" some here call it. It's a lot more fun shooting light loads and making good groups than it is shooting barn burners that sort of hit the general area of the berm...more or less. Work up from there.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
YeYeah, 30 Bhn will solve all our problems! I read it on the internet, it's gotta be true!
I think it's clicked for you. Good for you!
Just a thought, I don't know why cast bullets w/o the GC don't shoot great over a certain speed/pressure. There have been a lot of theories over the years. Some we can discount, like the flame melting the base, but some are certainly reasonable sounding. I can tell you this much- the $15 or so bucks you spend on a Lee sizing die to add GC's will pay off quickly. If you want to use a PB to avoid GC cost, then a PB design will almost always work out better than a GC design sans GC. If you really want to shoot PB, consider starting nice a low, say in the 1200 fps area. "Low Node" some here call it. It's a lot more fun shooting light loads and making good groups than it is shooting barn burners that sort of hit the general area of the berm...more or less. Work up from there.
Right now accuracy is not what I am shooting for. Its just that I have a quite a few of these so I am using them. I am using them to see where Alox loses its maximum effectiveness. So I can see how and why for myself in my gun.
I will probably end up Buying a low node 30-06 mold.
.
After I am done however.... I will be building a Red Dot Load to use the rest of these up as plinkers. Hopefully that 6 grain load will put me there quickly when I am ready.
Just want to explore the world without Gas checks or PC a bit more with what I have.
Right before I came here. I fell into a PC slump.
I was cheating and using PC on a lot of my .357 loads, As I had a lot of Training, PC and equipment from a previous job and a small business, that never got off the ground. If coated right and crimped on a grove, you can get away with a lot of sins, using powder coat.
But I have decided to lock up all the PC stuff. Stay away from using or discussing techniques and use of it. for a year or more. Till I become more fluent in the basics of loading, casting, sizing, and other forms of lube and lead control.
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Mitty38
Well-Known Member
I use Lee's Alox. I never have tried to formulate anything yet.
As I have acquired a few partial bottles in some estate boxes.
I heated them up, thinned the old thickened up ones with a little mineral spirits,poured them all together, and I have about 4 and 1/2 of the little white bottles at the moment.
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Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Alright, so you are wondering when Lee's Mule Shot stops working good. In some guns, with some bullets, with some loads in some cartridges it will wok up into the 1800 fps area. In other guns, bullets, loads, cartridges it starts failing at 1200 or even less. Again, fit is a major, multi-faceted "thing" in this game. Lube is part of dynamic fit. You might find Mule Snot works fine at 1800 with one load and bullet and doesn't if you change primer brands. Not trying to dissuade you from playing with it, but I am trying to implant the concept that your experiment will be limited in scope. Add the GC to that bullet and you might find you can go 500 fps faster. So, is that the lube failing or the bullet design winning? Have fun with it.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Well I did get out for a couple hrs here an there. Experimenting with my no gas check lee Alox loads. Cleaned a lot of lead from my barrel. Of course you guys probably already know the results, of my bass aquards experiment.
With the Universal at 12.1 and got a prominent lead ring around where the lands meet the throat. I did not shoot the 12.7 grain.
The 11.4 load gave me a small amount of lead in the grooves. 11.4 went down the pipe just fine, but had atrocious accuracy. So I stepped down and found a nice sweet spot with this with 9.8 grain.
Red dot was kinda weird.
13.5 had a lead ring around the start of the lands just kinda took a lead crap inside my throat and barrel all the way down. Who knows where the bullets went.
13 Just put a nice even shiny coat of lead down the last 3/4's of the barrel, very little in the throat end???? They all hit a 6 inch plate at 50 yards.
The 12.5's were pretty much the same as the 13's. Leading stopped completely at 8.5 grains and the sweat spot for accuracy came at 6.4 grains. 5/8's group at 50 yards.
Was really interesting to see the difference in how the non gas checked bullet reacted with the 2 different powders in my gun. Wish I knew the velocities I was pushing. Especially where the Alox quit failing with the two different powders in my gun.
However I realized something new. Let me put it the best way I can explain.
These powders don't just have different pressures , and curves, and but they move differently, through the whole process. Also the lube moves and flows differently with different powders.
With the Universal at 12.1 and got a prominent lead ring around where the lands meet the throat. I did not shoot the 12.7 grain.
The 11.4 load gave me a small amount of lead in the grooves. 11.4 went down the pipe just fine, but had atrocious accuracy. So I stepped down and found a nice sweet spot with this with 9.8 grain.
Red dot was kinda weird.
13.5 had a lead ring around the start of the lands just kinda took a lead crap inside my throat and barrel all the way down. Who knows where the bullets went.
13 Just put a nice even shiny coat of lead down the last 3/4's of the barrel, very little in the throat end???? They all hit a 6 inch plate at 50 yards.
The 12.5's were pretty much the same as the 13's. Leading stopped completely at 8.5 grains and the sweat spot for accuracy came at 6.4 grains. 5/8's group at 50 yards.
Was really interesting to see the difference in how the non gas checked bullet reacted with the 2 different powders in my gun. Wish I knew the velocities I was pushing. Especially where the Alox quit failing with the two different powders in my gun.
However I realized something new. Let me put it the best way I can explain.
These powders don't just have different pressures , and curves, and but they move differently, through the whole process. Also the lube moves and flows differently with different powders.
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Mitty38
Well-Known Member
??With Red Dot, The lead failed and bunched up in the chambers end, from the boot in the but it got, without a gas check to stiffen its base up a bit, and help push things along??? It still Failed, but a slight bit less with the Universal because of the way the powder applies the pressure???
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fiver
Well-Known Member
yep you squished the lead out to fill anywhere it could then scraped all the outside off on the end of the chamber when it sized back down.
there wasn't any lube between the lead and the steel after reshaping and scraping and reshaping it again.
a gas check wouldn't prevent that from happening.
there wasn't any lube between the lead and the steel after reshaping and scraping and reshaping it again.
a gas check wouldn't prevent that from happening.