How about we discuss using Lee Tumble Lube cast bullets?

[Mitty38]

I see what you are getting at. I was destroying all the work I was doing to fit the bullet to the gun.
Ok, bunch of questions here......
However, once you got below the point you were leaving a ring of lead in the chamber, would not a gas check have helped get a more accurate round without leading, at those loads?????
Say, If I sized a little smaller then .311, say .310. Gas checked and seated back with a slightly harder bullet ,I am guessing I could have made it work at 12 to 13 grains .
I would be losing the advantage of getting accuracy at a lowed velocity, and chances are I would not be getting as good MOA. Because shape shifting would still be a prominent factor??
Would it probably, no matter what the lube, most defiantly lead enough to throw a wild shot now and again?

I know I would be spending twice as much on powder. And eventually putting more wear and tear on my rifle with my practice rounds.

 

[fiver]

the gas check will help you get past that lowest point.
mostly because it well,,, it checks the gas behind it.
and partially because it also grabs the rifling much better than lead ever could.

changing the diameter can make all the difference when you combine it with where the bullet really is at that .4" mark,, you know when the top pressure is applied.
still fighting the throat?
actually in the barrel?
kind of stopped and hanging out... shrug.

you'll run out of money before you wear and tear a rifle to death shooting normal and low node cast bullets.
if it has plastic parts holding the trigger together or something... maybe.

here is the thing about accuracy.
it comes and it goes.. it really does.
you'll find several accuracy nodes up and down the ladder with different powders.
some of the best ones I have found have been at around 2400 fps. some of them even better than those at the 1800 mark.
and I have thrown bullets with slower powders and a filler at 1900 fps into groups where I could shoot squares out of the paper by moving the scope one click at a time.

the key to all that is I was doing almost all of it with different bullets, I was matching up the shape and the when with the powder speed.

 

[Bret4207]

I see what you are getting at. I was destroying all the work I was doing to fit the bullet to the gun.
Ok, bunch of questions here......
However, once you got below the point you were leaving a ring of lead in the chamber, would not a gas check have helped get a more accurate round without leading, at those loads?????
Say, If I sized a little smaller then .311, say .310. Gas checked and seated back with a slightly harder bullet ,I am guessing I could have made it work at 12 to 13 grains .
I would be losing the advantage of getting accuracy at a lowed velocity, and chances are I would not be getting as good MOA. Because shape shifting would still be a prominent factor??
Would it probably, no matter what the lube, most defiantly lead enough to throw a wild shot now and again?

I know I would be spending twice as much on powder. And eventually putting more wear and tear on my rifle with my practice rounds.

I'll repeat again you aren't ever, ever, EVER going to fix this with Bhn in a commonly available lead alloy with the handicaps you ran with. Forget BHN for now. Just forget it. It's like thinking you can change your 15 second drag racer into an 8 second racer by changing the tires. You have a multitude of others tools in your kit, Bhn is way down in a bottom corner on a back shelf because you don't need to use it for things like this. What you were shooting was just outside of the normal run of the mill load but you surely handicapped yourself right out of the gate. If you ask Fiver, I doubt very much he'll tell you he got great grouping with a GC bullet design, minus the GC, using Mule Snot in a rifle that might not have liked the bullet he was using in the 1st place. If you want to think about Brinell numbers, then think to yourself, "Ok, I'm using an alloy made up of clip on WW, I'm probably not going to see a BHn north of 12 or 13. What am I going to need to do to make it work? What are the practical limits everyone has been harping about?" It's nothing at all like jacketed reloading. Apples and refrigerators- both can come in boxes, but there it ends. The GC is surely going to make things exponentially easier. A PB design might well make things easier too since the base is going to be stronger and more uniform. You are going to have to give the bullet a fighting chance if you want to work up from low node stuff. It's that simple.

 

[fiver]

this is still a good learning exercise.
simply because it can help you pinpoint problems later as they crop up.

I know Emmett has 2 different bullets in his possession that are capable of going 2400+ fps with excellent accuracy.
he could simply throw together the basic package I sent him and be on his way.
he isn't really gonna learn anything except,, well,,,,, except that it is possible.
it doesn't give him any of they why or why not information other than there is probably a good reason why one bullet is flat and dull and the other is shiny and slippery, or other than they are 2 different designs and 2 different alloys.
there's a why they are.

 

[Mitty38]

this is still a good learning exercise.
simply because it can help you pinpoint problems later as they crop up.

I know Emmett has 2 different bullets in his possession that are capable of going 2400+ fps with excellent accuracy.
he could simply throw together the basic package I sent him and be on his way.
he isn't really gonna learn anything except,, well,,,,, except that it is possible.
it doesn't give him any of they why or why not information other than there is probably a good reason why one bullet is flat and dull and the other is shiny and slippery, or other than they are 2 different designs and 2 different alloys.
there's a why they are.

Yes, I could just follow the directions I have some very nice bullets and pre sized brass that are basically matched to my rifle. Plus I am currently set for my .357. Thanks to you guys. I also detailed instructions on how to make them work. Also the ability to reproduce some of those bullets. I thank you guys greatly for that because I know there are times I just want to forget about learning and shoot nice ragged holes.
But I need to see somethings for myself. This is how I learn.
I did what I did, knowingly making some mistakes, so I could see what my mistakes looked liked and try to figure out why they happened.
I want be the one, that can say to myself, this will work because... and this will not work because.
I have never saw bad leading til now. I had never saw a lead ring around the chamber or thought Why till now. It never dawned on me that Lube is not as magical as I was thinking, till now.
I Know now for sure what was meant by hitting a rotten tomato with a 3 wood
Like working on cars. Any shade tree mechanic can bolt on parts but it takes a deeper understanding to diagnose. I do not just want to be the guy that is watching u tube videos and and bolting on parts.

@Bret4207, you have been and I am sure you will remain a great asset. I have learned a bit from you already. I respect and look forward to your replies. And yes, you are getting thru to me believe it or not.
I am just like that kid. The one, when you tell him, do not touch, this it is hot.Just have to touch it so I know what hot is. Then I have to go around touching other hot things, so I can figure out the varying degrees of hotness. So please be patient with me.

 

[Bret4207]

Crap, I hope I didn't come across as a jerk. I wasn't trying to be. I get what you're trying to do and why. Have at it, it's just hard not to try to help you avoid stepping on that rake when you know it's going to pop up and smack you in the face, 'cuz I stepped on it too! I had to learn the hard (and expensive) way on most everything myself.

Keep playing with it, you'll get it figured out.

 

[Mitty38]

Crap, I hope I didn't come across as a jerk. I wasn't trying to be. I get what you're trying to do and why. Have at it, it's just hard not to try to help you avoid stepping on that rake when you know it's going to pop up and smack you in the face, 'cuz I stepped on it too! I had to learn the hard (and expensive) way on most everything myself.

Keep playing with it, you'll get it figured out.

YOU ARE GREATLY APPRECIATED! AND NO, I TOOK IT AS HARD LOVE AND NOT JERKINESS! Keep up with the comments, don't change a thing. I do listen to you and am usually less offended then I come across as.

 

[Ian]

I'm a lot like Bret, usually trying to tell people the answer or at least try to keep them from wasting their time and getting discouraged, thinking I'm helping them. Thing is, some things most people don't really savvy until they realize they need to start paying attention to certain things and actually start having their own good/bad/WTH! experiences and start thinking about it on their own. Then, sometimes, they bring those experiences to the table for discussion and get some tips that get them doing more shooting and observing, and so on. Just skipping to the end and telling them the answer is just like giving a man a fish: It may fix the problem of the moment but he's just as lost on the next challenge. I can explain alloy/powder/fit to someone who hasn't thought much about it before until I'm blue in the face (haven't I!) and it usually goes whoosh right over.

 

[Mitty38]

Ok, Back to the subject of tumble lube.
Does someone have a home brew that they think works a lot better?
I remember someone mentioning putting Alox in a bees wax mix. What is that all about??

Does anyone else wipe the bases and tips of the bullets off to cut down on smoke, and spatter?

 

[Bret4207]

There are various recipes out there for home made lubes, some are tumble type. I'll lets others make recommendations as I have no experience with them.

I will wipe the base to avoid powder contamination. The nose I don't worry about unless it's a ridiculous amount extra. I personally like to see a "lube ring" on the muzzle. Lube is a thousand times easier to clean than leading.

Ian, same here. How many times did we answer the same exact question on The Site Which Shall Not Be Named? "Can I shoot a GC design without the GC?" I even made a special section with a sticky specifically addressing the question over there just because of it. And yet, every week in the main section there would be 5 guys asking the same question as though they were the very first people to ever even think of such a thing! You can ask the same question 10K different times and the answer is still, "Yes, but here's what you'll find when you try..."

 

[popper]

LLA has no fps limit, just like any lube, it has to remain where it works. Lee 401-175TL mould I started with in 40sw. Wrong expander. LLA, #2 - lots of smoke (lots of lead) to make the sinus batty. Why? Blows the LLA off the bullet at the start! Fit matters. TL grooves? Lots of little grooves that hold lube but have very little strength. If they slump enough to disappear in the bore (else kinda like a real wide LG) lube is pushed out and body becomes stronger to twist forces. Basically, no resistance to gas that makes it past the bottom drive band!
Later with proper bullet & size, LLA did fine in 308W pushed hard, normal groove mould.
Advantage with PC - it stays put!
Hard alloy? ~36 BHN @ 2100 145gr PB PC, 300BO. Just over MOA @ 100! No leading. Target was ~ 1" circle. Would have been better (IMHO) if bases were better. Any real use? Not really other than it works. For 30 cal, divide PSI (40k ) by 2 and see the force on the base. ~10 tons! Puts a different perspective on things!

 

[fiver]

well you got alox so let's get you a can of Johnson's paste wax and whip up some 45/45/10 lube.
all you do is melt the wax and cook off the solvents. [takes about 10-15 minutes on lower heat and has a poof factor if your on an open flame]
add in an equal portion of alox [usually thinned down to like a mustard consistency] and stir together.
remove from the heat and dump in about 10% mineral spirits.

I add in about 10% bees wax to mine, it gives the mix a bit more ''body''

 

[Bret4207]

36 Bhn? Hokey smokey!! I got up to 28 once I think, maybe it was 27 or 29, but I got there. Then I water quenched too. No clue how hard those were. Still didn't solve the problem I had that was related to, you guessed it, fit. When you need a .312 and all your mould will do even with tape is .310 things just aren't going to end well.

 

[popper]

Mine just dented a bar of SuperHard, don't have a BHN meter.