HOW HOT CAN YOU LOAD LEAD .357 FOR A LEVER ACTION RIFLE.

[Mitty38]

Not going there yet . But for future reference.
With all the hype about the legend getting 2100fps out of a 16 inch barrel with a 180 grain bullet.
What I understand is the 350 legend is only really any good for under 150 meters anyway.
Was thinking a 357 mag gets that with a 125 grain bullet. And I have heard of safe .357 rifle loads that are just a bit hotter then the regular.
156 grain in a rifle achieving 1850 fps, in a 357 rifle that is only 250 fps difference.
Guess what I am getting at. Could the .357 magnum lever rifle, or maybe even a .44 magnum, have a cast bullet load made for it, and be a comparable to the 350 legend at 150 yards, for white tail sized deer?

 

[Brad]

I have pushed a 160:gr cast to 1650 in my Win 92 In 357 mag. Not sure it can go much faster. That is with a case full of 4227.
For deer at 150 yds I would prefer a 45-70. A sedate 45-70 load pushes a 400-420 gr bullet to 1400 FPS and doesn’t even make a Marlin 1895 break a sweat. A 357 Marlin 1894C is maxed out and still doesn’t come close to the deer killing umph at 150 yds.

 

[RBHarter]

I had a confirmed 1410 with H110 and a 170 gr HC Sierra .
Everything I shot in the 6" Sec 6 Ruger I had went 375-425 fps faster in a Marlin 1894C I had .

Fast rifle powders might get you some more with 140-160 gr bullets but you're off the books out in the weeds .

I had some QL data for 45 Colts with H322 start loads got me 1200+ fps with a 350 under 21,000 psi .

 

[fiver]

16-1650 is easy with a 160, 1800 is probably doable with H-110 and maybe a gas check.

150yds is easy with a 44 or 45 if you can hold steady enough.
lever gun silhouette is 200 meters to the rams, 150 is turkeys, miniature pigs are at 100, and chickens are at 50.
pigs are easy, rams ain't too bad, the turkeys? well, I think they are on a wobble base or are made of Styrofoam or turn sideways or sumthin,,,, you better not miss a chicken or you'll never hear the end of it.

you don't need that much speed to kill a deer or tip over a silhouette, but you do need to hit them.
my deer load is a whopper.
9.3grs of unique under a 240 or 250gr RNFP cast bullet depending on 44 or 45 colt.
I could make them deader with some 2400 I guess, a moderate amount of 4756 has worked before too.
100 yds. is more my limit mostly because if I can see past 100yds I can see 4-5-6-9000 yds and a lever or any rifle won't do me much good at that point.

 

[Mitty38]

So correct me if I am wrong. But my take from the conversation so far is that a .357 lead bullet will not easily do it. If at all.
The velocity that can be had with lead, in a .357 mag, thru a lever, is just not providing a good ballistic coefficient at 150 meter.
But go a little larger, more mass, a bit lower velocity. Use the right shape projectile. Right power curve on the powder.Allow for some drop. I figure 3"? Then a good clean kill with a lead bullet is very doable at 150 meter, with a lever, and a little practice? As in a .44 magnum??? Or allow for a lot of drop and go 45-70.

 

[Brad]

So correct me if I am wrong. But my take from the conversation so far is that a .357 lead bullet will not easily do it. If at all.
The velocity that can be had with lead, in a .357 mag, thru a lever, is just not providing a good ballistic coefficient at 150 meter.
But go a little larger, more mass, a bit lower velocity. Use the right shape projectile. Right power curve on the powder.Allow for some drop. I figure 3"? Then a good clean kill with a lead bullet is very doable at 150 meter, with a lever, and a little practice? As in a .44 magnum??? Or allow for a lot of drop and go 45-70.

A 45-70 is capable of doing anything a 44 mag can do in a levergun and more. A 44 mag lever action will get maybe 16-1700 FPS with a 300 gr bullet while a 45-70 can easily to 1800 and in a Marlin go 2000 plus.
Why go larger than 35 cal? Simple physics. More mass and diameter means better sound channels at the same velocity.
I would hunt deer with a 357 lever action but would prefer to stay 100 yds and under. Very capable cartridge/gun combination but like all of them it has limits.

 

[Ian]

Depends on the hunter and the game but any way you look at it, 150 yards is a long way for a .357 Magnum. I don't like to take shots that far with my .30-30 or .35 Rem even though I know how to connect with game at those ranges.

To paraphrase Glen Fryxell, it's a lot more fun to learn how to hunt than to spend your time chasing impressive ballistics.

 

[fiver]

a 357 will kill a deer.
you just have to think of a lever gun more like a black powder muzzle loader.
a 44 mag basically mimics a 50 cal BP rifle.
only with a heavier projectile, the 44-40 is almost a dead ringer across the board.

the 44 also has the down range energy of a 30-30, it just doesn't have the BC the 30 cal rifle has so washes out [balistically not terminally] around the 150yd mark, where the 30-30 keeps flying on a better trajectory for another 75 or so yards.

the 357 doesn't have any flies on it, it just gets caught out.
150grs in a 30 cal. is streamlined and penetrates well.
150 in 35 cal is kind of short and stubby, 180 is better but your working things pretty hard at that point.
will it do the job?
yeah, I wouldn't hesitate to drop the hammer on a deer with mine using a 158gr rnfp if that's what I had.
[heck I have used the 30 carbine loaded like a 32-20 so there is that]
will the 44 do it easier.. of course the holes are twice as big as is the damage in between them.

 

[Will]

Here’s some real world velocities shot from my rifles. This is not load data and was safe in my rifle. Remember the handi rifle loads are out of a 22” barrel and it has a huge freebore.
Handi Rifle
16.9gr 2400 125gr XTP 2112fps
16.5gr 300MP NOE 360-180GC 1751fps
13.5gr 296win NOE 360-180GC 1504fps

If you wanna get close to 2000fps with a 180gr bullet in a 357 your gonna need to go 357 maximum.
18” MGM Encore 357 Maximum
21.5gr 300MP NOE 360-180GC 1934fps
22.5gr 300MP NOE 360-180GC 1993fps
19.5gr 296win NOE 360-180GC 1952fps
20.0gr 296win NOE 360-180GC 1963fps
22.5gr 300MP 180gr XTP seated in bottom crimp groove 2037fps

 

[Bill]

I read one time a long time ago, that using available factory loads a 30-30 has more energy at 100 yards than a 44 mag has at the muzzle

Bill

 

[Spindrift]

Personally, I very rarely load «max loads». My thinking is, if I feel the need for a super-max load, I probably should have chosen another cartridge. The «middle of the chart» loads give less wear on the gun, and brass. You can do load development in the winter, and the load is still safe on a warmer day. You’ll consume less bullets during load development (which is a factor, with expensive factory hunting bullets).

That’s one of the things I appreciate with the 30-06. You don’t have to push it to its full potential, to get a functional hunting load. Just before moose season this autumn, I decided to develop a load for a 30-06, using Federal fusion 180grs bullets (they’re good, by the way). Did a minimal chrony ladder, chose a load in «hot .308»- territory, shot 3 five-shot groups with sight adjustment. Had the gun sighted in with a good hunting load, with MOA accuracy at the expense of only 20 bullets.
A bit of topic, sorry Mitty

 

[Mitty38]

PAPAW ALWAYS SAID, "DON'T SAY YOUR SORRY UNLESS YOU MEAN IT."
Its all good. Just sittin' here soakin up the info.
Can not hunt deer with a 30-06 a in Ohio. But I can hunt hog and blow away some yotes', and ground hogs with it.
Also can take the 30-06 to WV or Kentucky to hunt. And I am already, thanks to you guys here, shooting lead thru it.
Plus I just love my Junky Plastic, adopted Savage Axis. So much that I am looking into getting a better stock. So drift away.

 

[Spindrift]

There are a few straight-wall cartridges that share the bolt face of the 30-06. I have a 44 auto mag barrel for my rem 700 switch-barrel. Starline makes brass, with powder capacity similar to regular 44mag. You’d need a barrel, nut wrench, die (hornady/RCBS). Magazine won’t work.
Just so you know, in case you like slightly unpractical solutions, you could convert your bolt gun to a straight- wall slug thrower

 

[Bret4207]

So correct me if I am wrong. But my take from the conversation so far is that a .357 lead bullet will not easily do it. If at all.
The velocity that can be had with lead, in a .357 mag, thru a lever, is just not providing a good ballistic coefficient at 150 meter.
But go a little larger, more mass, a bit lower velocity. Use the right shape projectile. Right power curve on the powder.Allow for some drop. I figure 3"? Then a good clean kill with a lead bullet is very doable at 150 meter, with a lever, and a little practice? As in a .44 magnum??? Or allow for a lot of drop and go 45-70.

It's not as simple as either/or. In the hands of a good shooter that can judge range and is offered a good shot and knows game anatomy, I'd say the 357 in a 20" lever gun will take deer at 150 yards using something in the 160 gr range. In a rifle the 357 is a different animal than your revolver. But it's not a 35 Whelen. Neither is the 357 max or the Legend thing. They aren't even 35 Rems. Same with the 44 mag/45 Colt, they aren't 45/70's, much less 458 Wins. 150 actual yards isn't that far. Wind, drop, stuff in the way...all that adds up to misjudging range or taking a perfect hot and having it blow off course. I would love to have an older Marlin of Win 92 clone in 357. Would I be trying shots at deer at 150 yards? No, but I'm half blind anyway. So it's an academic exercise to talk about it for me. A coyote? Yup, I'd be taking the shot every time and probably connecting 1 out of 3 or 4. For deer, I'd be using it as a stalking type or stand gun where shots were under 100 yds, or more likely around 50 yards as we have a lot of that here. As someone above said- hunting isn't ballistics.

 

[CZ93X62]

I have the luxury nowadays to not NEED to put a deer on the ground to supplement my family's diet. In the days I WAS hunting to re-stock the larder, my usual rifle was a 308 Win or 30-06 Springfield. 30/30 WCF was my "brush gun".

I have only had a 357 Magnum rifle for about 3 years. Fun rifle, and deer-accurate to 150 yards, but not (IMO) truly deer-capable past 75 yards and with a hard limit at 100. A 180 cast GC/FN cast as a soft-point would have been my bullet in the deer scrub. 2400, AA-9, or 296/H-110 can prompt 1275 FPS from the 6" 586 and about 1325 from the 7.5" Bisley Blackhawk. In the 20" Henry, it doesn't quite make the 1700 FPS level.

 

[Mitty38]

I have an area that I contract hunt yotes, We have 20 hunters on the contract. We alternate go out 5 of us at a time 1 day every week. So I get to hunt it once time a month. If not twice.
I have learned the yardages looking thru a 3X9 BSA Scope with both my AR15 and my Win .243 in the specific spots I sit. Looks like only 4 of us are deer hunters, and they may end up giving us permission to feed, salt and hunt 2 spots(one which My sights know well). It stretches to 150+ yards of visible area ( at least when the leaves are off). With a dirt bank back drop.
Thing is, from the cliff and rock outcroppings I take cover on. Most of the game break cover and are headed in a direction that puts them in good position, at 100 to 160 yards.
Thing is with Ohio law I cannot use a tapered or necked down cartridge to hunt deer.
So the 2 rifles I know, I could make a good, clean,150 yard kill on a deer I am not allowed to use.
IF we get the permission. I would like to get something I can put the same model scope I already have on the other 2 rifles. But I want something I can load for, and that will not rip my shoulder off. To be able to cast for it too would be an extra added bonus, Knowing that I cast and loaded the bullet, that put food on the table, would be an extra added bonus.
So therefore my thoughts of velocities and a light bullet.
Of course I could get a $300 barrel for my $250 870 and load 3inch magnum, 20 gauge slugs for that distance. But then I would not be able to use the scope that is on my other 2 rifles. It is not rated for shotgun.

 

[358156 hp]

And for the life of me I don't understand why no lever-action rifle manufacturer ever chambered a rifle in 357 Max. All they needed to do was use a '94 action, buy one new reamer, and shuffle a few parts around between product lines. I suspect Marlin didn't want to upset the 35 Rem. applecart, but Winchester never had that excuse.

 

[fiver]

it's because they would have had to follow through with the rest of the family and go 37-41-44 too.
my 375 Winchester will feed the 375 super mag round like butter and does everything but shoot well with the 3/4" jump.
it would be nothing to short chamber a 375 barrel and screw it on.
maybe set a new cartridge stop on the lifter to make it a little more professional.
if it works there it works everywhere else too.
I'd probably do the changeover but I kind of have a problem changing up rifles made in small numbers, that seem to have some kind of collector following.
that and I can just down load the longer case if I really want the lesser velocity.

 

[Will]

Just call match grade machine and have them make you a 357 maximum barrel with the chamber cut for your dummy round. Mine was throated for the RCBS 35-200.

https://imgur.com/a/A5WBb2X

https://imgur.com/a/yYKlGv0

https://imgur.com/a/1jr0YD0

 

[Walks]

I used the #358156GC over Max 2400, Same as I shoot in BlackHawk 6 1/2"
Or Saeco #354 over Max 2400
Used 4227 on occasion, think it gives a bit better accuracy in Marlin 1894CS.
Shooting it in a 1894CB 24" it actually slows down. Guess all powder is consumed before the bullet exits that extra 5 1/2" bbl.