HOW HOT CAN YOU LOAD LEAD .357 FOR A LEVER ACTION RIFLE.

John

Active Member
Do you have the data for the NOE 160 and 180 wfn at 1800 fps? I wonder what that energy and speed are at 150 yards.
My biggest problem with a 150 yard shot and a lever is the platform. I think a scope of a good receiver sight would be needed for me to hit a gallon milk jug at half that.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Strelok phone app . There is a free and a pay version . Either will include time of flight , wind adjustment , and I think grade as well .
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ohio and Iowa I think also have a 1.8 maximum case length . That's where the "Modern 45-60 " came from . The 45-70 loaded to short correct oal but cases cut back to 1.8 . 38 Short in a 357 . Of course that's why the 460 in a 336 or 1895 would sing and part of the drive for the Raptor .
Iowa does specifically allow 45-70, 375 Win, and 444 Marlin.
 

Walks

Well-Known Member
To get back on track.
If I had a Rifle, such as a Ruger #1 or #3.
I think I would go back to the suggested loads from the Old Days. Using powders still made today. Start LOW, work up Slow.

Although I did shoot up some .357Mag loads that I loaded using an old load with WSPM primers. A few out of 200 rds had slightly flattened primers, less then 10 cases. Used A Marlin 1894CS.
Was going to load some JSP's over WW296, changed My mind and used a different Powder & Lead Alloy Bullet.
That Powder Did Not Need Magnum Primers.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Yessir--28.0-30.0 grains of IMR-4198 in 45/70 using 405 grain Lee or Lyman castings; 22.0-24.0 grains of IMR-4198 in 38/55 using 250-255 grain Lee or Lyman castings. Velocities range between 1250-1300 FPS in both calibers from my leverguns. Both calibers have sterner loadings for counter-bruin engagements, running gas-checked bullets into the 1700 FPS ZIP Codes. WLR primers in all loads.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
a 435gr bullet is the same as 1 oz. +-2-3grs off the top of my head.
a 12 ga target/field load is usually 1 oz at 12 or 1250fps. or a promo pack is 1-1/8oz at 1200 fps.
this means you can shoot a 405gr bullet at around 1300 fps to have the same recoil as a normal 12 ga load.
heavier duck and pheasant loads are 1.25oz's [or about 550grs.] at 1330 fps.
if your used to shooting something like that.
then a 405gr 45-70 moving along at 1600 fps would be familiar recoil territory depending on the weight of the gun.
about 3"s high at 100yds would make anything out to 150yds. a point at the middle and press the switch situation.
with a scope it'd maybe be more like 2"s.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
Okay, it's time to drag Paco Kelly into this. Interestingly, his 357 mag rifle results are matching what others are reporting here very closely. This article was published many years ago, and contains a lot of the old 357 mag data. Todays pressures and data are significantly lower so S&W can sell you 357 mag J Frames, and K Frames:angry:. Anyway, take Pacos data with a grain of salt, his work reminds me of Elmer Keiths work in some ways. He never recommends anything he hasn't done himself, and he never recommends anything that doesn't work. He even recommends you use a larger caliber for deer! Anyway, here's Pacos take on 357 lever-actions: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm
 
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Walks

Well-Known Member
Back when the J-Frame Alloy .357Mags came out. I had the opportunity to Try one out. It did have Hogue Grips. Was a Model 36 2" bbl.
Ammo was REM .357Mag -125gr JHP.

Not only did I fire one round, I fired a 2nd round.

Well nobody ever said I was the Brightest Bulb in the box.
God Help me if I ever shot one of My Dad's .357Mag Loads for His old M27 8 3/8" or Win 1892 Conversion to .357Mag.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
A friend once bought a S&W 360 in 357 mag. You know the one, it has a scandium alloy frame. We took it out shooting as soon as he got it. Since it was new, my friend only wanted to shoot factory ammo in it, and since I had a box of 145 gr Silvertips, I offered them up. Now back in the olden days, there were two different loads offered in the 145 gr weight range. You had the midrange 140 gr at maybe 900-950 fps, and the owie hot 145 gr full power load at around 1350 fps in a 4 inch. We had the latter. I have shot a lot of trainstopper loads in my time, but nothing was ever as painful as that little featherweight revolver with the hot Silvertips. I fired one shot and gave the gun back. My friend fired two shots (to show me up), then put it away. I have a 357 J frame, but after the 360 incident, my J frame is all steel. The 360 went home and was buried somewhere in the back of his safe. To my knowledge it has only had those three rounds fired in it. Imagine what my 38-44 loads could have been like.
 

Walks

Well-Known Member
Ok, I read Paco Kelly's stuff. He stole Everything from My Dad.

The Old Man Loaded .357Mag to the gills with 2400.
Of course this was back in the 1950's & 60's before the Lawyers got involved and Alliant reformulated 2400.
I got B92 in 1982/, He glaomed onto it like it was a Center Cut of Lawry's Prime Rib. He lost His old Winchester Conversion & M27 in a 1974 Burglary.
Got a Ruger NM Blackhawk & had PACHMAYR rebarrel in to 8 1/2". Never got that Rifle back.

He loaded the #358156GC cast of straight Linotype over whopping charges of 2400. He had another 2cav mold that cast a 180gr FP very much like the Saeco #354. But it wasn't a Saeco.

GEEZ, He was a hecka of a Fine Shot with Rifle or Handgun. Though He couldn't hit a barn wall from the inside if all the doors were closed, with a shotgun.

How Hot can you load .357Mag in a Rifle ?
Clean your bolt face well. Load 'em up however hot YOU ARE WILLING TO GAMBLE.

ME I AIN'T A GAMBLING MAN. So I stay within PUBLISHED LIMITS.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I was still working when the S&W J-frame 357 Magnums came onstream, and wanted no part of owning or firing any of them. The J-frame 38 Specials were always popular as off-duty and back-up arms, even after we went to autopistols in 1987. I recall my initial reaction to the idea of J-frame 5-shot 357s, something along the line of "My thumb will be back near my elbow by Round 5".

Time went on, and eventually a rangemaster buddy talked me into shooting his all-S/S J-frame 357, with Pachmayr ComPacs installed. ALL RIGHT. 15 riounds, cylinder full and 2 HKS speed-loaders filled with Coin Of The Realm--WW Super-X 158 grain JHPs. First shot wasn't all that bad, but it darn sure wasn't pleasant. By Round 5 my thumb was still in its OEM location. 5 hits inside the 8-ring on the B-27 at 15 yards. Re-charge, and walk to the 10 yard line. 5 more, as before, about 2 seconds apart, 5 hits a little closer together. Re-fill and step to the 7 yard tile--all inside the 10 ring, carefully aimed, about 3 second intervals. ENOUGH.

My hand was SORE. On what planet was this sort of thing FUN? But I did check off "Shoot 357 Magnums from a J-frame revolver" from the Bucket List. My shop's current 357 carry load--the Federal #357B--is the FBI-blessed 125 grain JHP alleged to achieve 1450 FPS in 4" barrels. In my tight 686 x 4", these clock a true 1425-1430 FPS, so 'pretty close' to ad copy. My agency went this route because most 357s being carried were getting carried in 2"-3" revolvers, and the 158 grainers weren't expanding reliably from the short barrels and resulting reduced velocities. The Federal #357B bullets did open up in Jello. The 125s have noticeably less recoil in my 686 than the 158 grain loads did, FWIW. I imagine that reduced recoil happens in the J-frames as well, and so I think we have discerned the true/actual rationale for the load change. I won't tell if you won't.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I have a folder full of Pacos articles. As someone else said, he's got all the old data in there. What we used to do with things like 38 Specials, the 358156 and 2400 is probably not recommended today- but it worked great. I still use some of his data and it was his writing that got me turned on to the 311440 which is one game stomping snotty little number out of anything in 30 cal with at least the capacity of a 32-20. Just use you head and WORK UP SLOWLY!

Mitty, what platform are you wanting to use the 357 out of? I assume it's a scoped lever gun? I looked but may have missed it.

RB Harter- That is one neat program you have there! I've never seen a program that accounts for bullet yaw before...or at least I think that's what the "Hor. correction, inch" is. Impressive!
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
In my set up it's wind 10 mph 90° not Corialias(SP) .
You can choose 100+ optics , Mrad , mildot , mils , inches ,yards or meters and I think MPS vs FPS .
Google store Strelok .
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
Al- the Pachmayr Compacs are serious heavy-duty magic for hot J Frames. I'm trying to find someone who will make me a few sets out of wood or G10. I took my Compacs off for pocket carry and now I'm back to shooting std velocity stuff in the J Frame.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
In my set up it's wind 10 mph 90° not Corialias(SP) .
You can choose 100+ optics , Mrad , mildot , mils , inches ,yards or meters and I think MPS vs FPS .
Google store Strelok .

Aha! I thought that those values were kinda high for yaw. Makes sense now. Incredible what is available to Joe Average these days that used to take a gov't owned super computer to figure out.
 

Walks

Well-Known Member
The Packs are great on Some Revolvers. I bought a set for My Colt 1975 Cobra. Tried them, went back to the stock grips. Those are just find for the box of WC's I shoot every year.
The Presentation Grips I bought for My 161 Series Ruger Security-Six. They tore the skin off the WEB of My Hand. Bought Herretts.
Sometimes I wish I'd not gone so hard into Cowboy Shooting. I'd still have My M638 - .38+P.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
I had great success with the old Mustang rubber grips on my Security-Six. They felt really natural, and the gun shot to point of aim without finagling it around at all.

More stuff I should've kept...