How many of you actually believe this ?

[Ben]

Yesterday, I was in a large book store ( Books a Bazillion ). I found a current edition of " ABC's of reloading " and picked it up and started browsing through it. On page 36, this little tidbit of information caught my eye, so I photographed it to share with some of you guys.

Says the base of a cast bullet, if seated below the case
neck, will be melted ? ? ? What do you say ?

Ben

 

[Brad]

The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

Like everything else in shooting, it MIGHT matter but only one way to know for sure, isn't there?

I have seated checks below the bottom of the neck and had both good and bad results. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, I keep working to find what does.

I personally think much of what was written in years gone by about shooting cast in rifles was written by those who rarely shot cast in rifles. These are people who though a 32 SWC in an '06 for squirrel loads was the extent of the value in cast bullets in a rifle.

I'm a firm believer in the final judge on all things shooting. Results matter, theory doesn't. If it puts bullets where they are aimed the. I don't care if is supposed to work, I only care if it does work.

 

[Ben]

Here is my question ?

How can a cast bullet that lacks 1/16 " being seated below the case neck be safe and the same bullet that is seated 1/16" below the case neck is melted ? The temperature of the burn of the propellant is the same on both cast bullets.

You can take a propane torch and wave it on the base of a cast bullet for 1 second. Much more time than it is in the case when the primer ignites the propellant. Absolutely nothing will happen to the base of the bullet.

I've shot many plain base bullets out of an 06' and 308 Win. with gilt edge accuracy with the base of the bullet below the case neck. How could that occur if the base of the cast bullet is being melted ? ? ?

Yes Brad, an awful lot of what has been written in the past about shooting cast bullets is now proving to be wrong. Like " A spire point cast bullet won't be as accurate as a round nose cast bullet ." " The harder a cast bullet is, the less likely it is to lead your barrel."

Ben

 

[RicinYakima]

Ben,

You are correct, for almost the right reason. It is not the temperature of the powder, it is the total quantity of heat. There is not enough transfer in the time period to melt lead. Ever! People who recover bullets and see the deformities on the side call that "melting"also, but we know that it is not from that cause. It is abrasion, or erosion, from gas molecules leaking down the side of the bullet under pressure.

Ric

 

[Rick]

I agree that accuracy "could" be effected. Melting the base is pure nonsense and one of the great old wives tales. If lead which conducts heat rather slowly can be melted by the powder gases why don't plastic shotgun wads melt? Why don't paper shotgun wads burn, or singe or even turn dark?

Numerous old wives tales still in print to this day such as Ben mentioned, harder will prevent leading. It is a known fact today that too hard can be the cause leading.

 

[Ben]

Exactly Rick !

Ben

 

[Ben]

With all that I have said above, I would prefer that the cast bullet base be confined in the neck.

Ben

 

[carpetman]

For many of the reasons stated in this thread, primarily the bullet is not exposed to the heat long enough to melt, I question the need for gas checks.

 

[Rick]

I think the check adds strength to the base of the bullet evidenced by the fact that they are totally unneeded below a certain pressure point/velocity in a given cartridge. Strengthening the base has nothing to do with "melting" but rather deformation, abrasion or gas cutting.

It's simply not possible to melt lead in your bore.

 

[carpetman]

Rick, not to flame, what signs would show that the base needs strengthening? I am not into high velocity and high RPM's so maybe I haven't reached that point. The fastest I have shot cast is in my .243, the 95 grain RCBS bullet. I had a load that according to the book should have been 2400 fps. According to a chronograph they were 2900 fps. With a huge amount of experience that 22 cal jacketed bullets in the right place are all that is needed for deer, I figured these pills would work great on deer. Tried them on a spike buck, not a drop of blood found and deer ran off. This was after both my grandson and I had made what should have been an easy shot on it. So I gave up on hunting with cast bullets. I know I could go to a bigger bore, but I'd have more recoil and more rainbow trajectory. I prefer the milder flat shooting and done deal right now, so I use jacketed for hunting.
I still shoot the .243 bullet, but not for hunting. One time at the range, I was shooting them without a gas check. I had shot several and looked at my bore. I was impressed enough with the shine that I had my neighbor that was also at the range take a look. I was using FWFL (felix lube) and felix always said use some of the red wax off cheese or Maker's Mark as this was carnuba and would add shine to the bore. I was getting good accuracy, no leading and no gas check.

 

[Rick]

Just based on the generally accepted use of checks in most calibers much beyond around 1650 fps by experienced casters. There are of course exceptions to everything but as a soft rule as pressure/velocity rises checks are a benefit. I've gone beyond that myself at times but generally not.

 

[KHornet]

Per a couple of threads on the 6.5 Lee Cruse Missal that both Ben and I have, To close the bolt on a 6.5 Swed, the bullet must be appreciably below the base of the neck. I have over the years recovered a number of these fired bullets. Some had gas checks on, some had shed the checss. Never saw any evidence of base melting. Tried melting the base with a Burnz torch, as as stated above took appreciably longer with a torch than time it would take traveling down the bore.

 

[smokeywolf]

I'm not ready to believe that any melting takes place if both base and O.D. of the bullet is exposed to the heat of the gases. As others point out, the bullet simply is not in the barrel for a long enough period of time to melt. I do believe that there is a softening that takes place, which must result in a more dramatic shape change or oburtation. This is where a gas check becomes more of a need.
Anyone who has done soldering or sweat copper pipe knows that without a degree of heat such as that produced by say, an oxy/acetalene cutting torch, even with lead's limited conductive properties, the base of the bullet can't begin to melt without the rest of that mass also reaching a much higher heat range. Also as previously pointed out, if card wads come out without charing or even much of a color change, then lead is not melting.

Although the internet has provided an easy and almost instant method for people of insufficient knowledge to spread misinformation, it has also provided for input from more knowledgeable people to dispell mininformation which often went unchallenged when paper media was the main and sometimes the sole avenue for the transfer of knowledge.

 

[carpetman]

There was a time that I would have been in the category of an experienced caster and I would have advocated the use of gas checks. I would have given the same reasons that I had always heard. Perhaps perpetuating a false rumor? One example that comes to mind is guys that drive diesel pickups. Many leave them idling when they go into a store or leave them running while they fill them up. Ask them why and you get all kinds of answers, but they see the long haul drivers doing it and they think all diesel drivers should. The long haul drivers do it because it is their home and they want to maintain the climate in the cab. Many times they are driving for someone else that is paying the tab on the fuel. In truth leaving it idling while you shop etc is burning fuel the same as in a gasoline engine. Another example is "chaff", that was used in aircraft. Chaff is tinsel cuts of tin foil, much like the tinsel used on Christmas trees. It was dropped in large quantities out of airplanes and the hope was the enemy radar would lock onto it instead of their airplane. The notion was born that tin foil messed up radar. Back about the time law enforcement started using radar to catch speeders, many people put tin foil in their hubcaps to mess up the cops radar. Maybe they should have put gas checks in their hubcaps?

 

[JWFilips]

From everything I have learned ( Mostly form the folks here) is the lead is not going to melt! It may suffer gas "blow by" but melting.... no way...Just too short of a time span. Gas Checks prevent gas cutting or blow by ...they are not used to protect the base from melting

 

[Brad]

I do think riveting is possible if the alloy is soft enough and pressure rise fast enough. This also requires a bullet pretty deep below the neck.

So much of what happens depends on time. Slow things down a bit on something like pressure rise and lots of bad things can be prevented. A 35K PSI load of Unique will give greatly different results than a 35 K PSI load of 4895 in an 06.

I'm a firm believer in trying things and seeing what works. If the load shoots, why sweat it.

I personally prefer a bullet that doesn't extend below the case neck but if it is a design I like and it works I could care less where the check ends up when loaded.

As for old wives tales, come on guys. We all know Marlin micro groove barrels need a Linotype bullet at less than 1600 fps for any semblance of accuracy.......

 

[RicinYakima]

Riveting is possible, with gas checks, heavy for caliber bullets (220 grains in 308 from personal experience), seated hard into the throat, with soft alloys and fast powders. When you recover Lyman #311284 with the bottom lube groove missing and the gas check at an angle, you start looking at riveting pretty hard.

 

[Brad]

Recovering bullets that aren't overly damaged from impact on the berm can be a huge help. Seeing is believing.

 

[RicinYakima]

Firing them into four deep boxes of oil sawdust leaves them very nice, after you wash them in solvent, of course. Easy to do when I had access to a private range, that is now a sub-division.

 

[freebullet]

Wow, quite a conversation starter Ben.

My 2 cents.... It's magic!