HV Cast in Milsurps

[KHornet]

The interest in HV with cast has sort of peaked my interest in milsurps with cast. Thinking about the fact that most of the milsurps in or prior to WWI were developed to
shoot heavy for cal bullets. Most of the vols for those rifles were in the 22-2300 fps area. Soooo, I am thinking of trying to find loads for 303's, 7.62x54's, & 7.5x55's and 8x57 (don't have a milsurp in that cal, but have a mauser for testing, and if that proves anything may be a good reason to buy an 8x57 that will run in the 22-2300 vol range for issue rifles out to the military spec potential. Most of these would spec at 4MOA or less, and accordingly were capable of hitting a human target at at least 300 yds. I think accordingly that I ought to be able to do that even with nearly 80 year old eyes, but will start with loads that are accurate at 50 and 100 and work out. Now if spring would just break thru, and temps stay at least 50 degrees, and is would be so nice if there was very little wind.

Paul

 

[fiver]

they do pretty well with the same cast loads the 308's like.
usually the only change is a filler to mimic the 308's case volume.

 

[45 2.1]

With the deep rifling and heavy bullets, you should have success if the bullet fills the throat. Powders like 4350 and slower do very well in these.

 

[35 shooter]

That should be an interesting and fun project. For some reason i really like the idea of working with and pushing the 8x57.

 

[KHornet]

Will be starting on the 8x57 this week or next.

Paul

 

[Rally Hess]

Sounds like fun Paul, but your likely pretty optimistic on the wind part. Seems like any time I get much west of here, the wind is always blowing 30 knots.

 

[Eagle223usa]

I use IMR 4198 with a Lee 185 324 in my 8x57 Mausers, The fastest I've driven them is 2100 fps though.

 

[Intheshop]

Good luck with your project.

Interesting here,and should be obvious,colour me slow but.......the recoil pulse of the rig dosen't care that it's CB vs JB.Meaning,as velocity goes up with cast,some of the problems with accuracy ain't the bullet,it's bedding and overall rig balance showing up. The sore shoulder dosen't know CB from JB either.

 

[BHuij]

I'll be following your progress with great interest - developing a HV (and VERY accurate) load for my Mosin is high up on my list of projects.

 

[dromia]

I have been shooting my 303s at the 2300 fps mark with cast for years at targets out to 1,000 yrds.

My most accurate rifle is my No4T, Veral at LBT, tortuous process dealing with Veral but the mould is perfect, cut me a GC mould to my chamber slug and this rifle consistently shoots 2 MOA or under, the bullet weighs in at 192 gr with copper enriched alloy of around 17-18 BHN I would have wanted it heavier but the freebore on this rifle is near spec with little wear so that limited the weight. Powders that worked well were IMR 4350 and Vihtavuori N150 with N150 having the edge. From my experience the trick is as usual perfect bullet fit, hence the bespoke mould, careful assembly of the round with consistency in all elements and using every technique to get the bullet and cartridge concentric with the bore, that along with the slower powders that don't reach peak pressure 'till the bullet is well into the rifling and a tough rather than hard alloy. My lube of choice is White Label's 2500, Gator gas checks.

 

[Ian]

I have a question for those of you using copper-enriched alloy. Do you think of the copper as a toughening agent from the standpoint of controlling metal movement in a certain way, or do you think of it as a friction modifier in the sense of gilding metal alloy?

 

[RBHarter]

My use is to have a toughened bullet I guess .
It behaves in the bore like a 22 BHN while like a 12-14 on target being 18 on the bench .
So I get target expansion and weight retention while being able to take advantage of the small cal velocities .

 

[fiver]

my opinion is that it gets in between the little gaps in the antimony and the lead.
tin is always acting as either a grain refiner or a flow agent before settling in as support.
antimony is doing it's thing but the copper is always strung out along the boundary edges of the antimony.
this allows the antimony to break like normal only now it has something holding it in place.

it's like mashing an apple in a plastic bag.

 

[dromia]

To me it is about toughness as opposed to brittleness.

I don't know the science enough to explain it but what I do know is if I take a hard bullet say linotype and smack it with a hammer it cracks and crumbles around the edges, if it has a smidgen of copper in it then when I smack it with the hammer the edge is intact.

 

[popper]

controlling metal movement in a certain way Proof to me is the difference in 'pressure' lines in recovered bullets. Pic of a normal alloy shows unequal-distant 'pressure' lines - kind of blobby - where the metal has moved. Caused by 'blobs' ofdifferent 'ratios' of alloy. Can't post a pic of my recovered as I don't have a microscope. Equidistant very fine - close together 'presure' lines where the metal has moved.

 

[dromia]

One crucial step that I forgot to mention in my first post to the OP for long range, HV cast bullet shooting is bullet quality control. You are 100% in control when casting bullets, one of the many pluses of cast bullet making, so use this to ensure that crucial consistency in each bullet, inspect, measure, weigh, balance and be ruthless in culling anything less than perfect. When casting don't think about rejection rates think about success rates, on occasions I might only get a dozen suitable bullets out of a hundred, but when at 1000 yrds, you take that first shot, the pause is interminable, then the joy as the target goes down signaling a hit and the thrill and satisfaction as the target comes up with the shot marker in the black is worth all sweat and perfection seeking. Confident in your ammunition you can then settle down, concentrate on the wind and the light to shoot for score, reveling in the disbelief of your jacketed shooting counterparts on the firing point that you are holding your own with CAST BULLETS AT A THOUSAND YARDS?!?!?!

 

[KHornet]

Well, I started yesterday with slower powders and cast. Loaded 308, 311299 NOE .310, with Varget and H414. The Varget load was 34.4 gr, for an estimated vol of 2050 or so, and the H414 load was 40 gr. estimated vol 2100 +/-. Bullets were not weighed, just visual, with Al gas checks and br/Bll. Shot at 50 yds,.

40 gr H414= 5 rds, 2.95", 4 in 1.3", 3 in .825, with he 2nd going out to the right, and the 4 th going out to the left, but that was me called.

34.4 gr Varget= 5 rds, 1.3", 3 in near cloverleaf, and other two touching about 3/4" lower. The three shots near cloverleaf were.625"

Goal here is to find a load that is accurate at a vol of about 2200-2250 fps, out to about 300 yds with that being the objective range. Pressuers noted with H414 barely noticable, and no pressure noted with the Varget load.

Quicksilver says the problem with three and two shots in a group separation may and probably is a factor of cheek placement. Will have to start concentrating on that. As I loaded 10 each of these loads, the other 5 will go down range at 100, with concentration on cheek placement next time
at the range.

Paul.

 

[Creeker]

Now if spring would just break thru, and temps stay at least 50 degrees, and is would be so nice if there was very little wind.

Paul

What is this spring you speak of?

 

[quicksylver]

What is this spring you speak of ? I think I saw one in a picture once ..it looked very interesting..

 

[300BLK]

I took the 311299 from 36-42gr IMR4895 in a K31. 38-40gr grouped 2moa or less, but at 41-42gr the groups opened noticeably. I recall 40gr doing 2250fps across the chrono. The same bullet and powder worked well in the '06 up to 2150fps and that was 38gr.