hypothetical situation

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Jam or no jam to me depends on the bullet design. A self aligner like the MP 30 sil I wouldn’t jam. The 30 XCB I would have no problems with a jam or a very short jump.

If you are gonna jam then by God jam em. Don’t go for .003 jam or something like that. A small variance on OAL or bullet nose diameter would mean one is jammed and the next may not be. By jamming them .010 or more means you have a jam for ALL of them.

By the same token when I jump I want .010 or more. Same rationale.

Yes, the BR guys with jacketed use small jam and jump numbers but they are using very precisely made bullets, fresh throats, and very tight chambers. We ain’t talking that here.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I can assure you both H-110 and AA-1680 are very viable powders in the 30-06.
this probably isn't their best scenario by far [as far as a clean ignition goes]
but they will both lay down some medium speed groups as good as anything out there.
the thing is your avoiding the start stop scenario that causes the problems with H-110 by not jumping the bullet, once it goes it goes the only resistance is the initial pressure to engrave the bullet.
that resistance is enough to fight the primer blast giving the powder a good chance at burning and burning fully.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I didn't mean you couldn't use it, but that you can't ignore its differences and treat the relative burn rate chart as a velocity dial during load development. You don't want to create a start, stop, smolder---KABOOM scenario either, even if the pressure spike isn't dangerously high.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Another GREAT discussion sequence here.

My preferences--almost all of my cast rifle bullets "kiss" the rifling leade. Those that do not--and they are few--are restricted by a magazine length or other feed geometry issue.

NONE of my jacketed loads do so--I start with .030" of leade/ogive clearance with my J-words, and once a decent consistent load is developed I might 'cheat' the bullets .005"-.010" forward or backwards to see what--if any--difference such moves might make. My rifles and skills combinations seldom discern any. The Barnes Condor Cuddlers get seated with .050" of leade/ogive clearance, per Barnes' recommendations.

I never use WW-296/H-110 powder with cast bullet in the Mag rollers. Those are strictly jacketed-bullet-of-standard-to-heavy-weight roles. Alliant 2400 is so much more flexible and usable that it has largely supplanted 296/110. AA-9 (which seems like a fast-lot 296/110 to me) gets some use in 357 and 44 Mag j-word loads, and does OK with my 125 JHP Federal #357B duplicators. Loud, bright, blasty fun in my 4" 686.

WC-860 is one of those heavily-deterrent-coated ball powders, and it gets a bit of love at my house. I use Fed #215 primers to light it in j-word 6.5 x 55 140 grain loads, and it gives GREAT accuracy at 1896 speeds (2450 FPS) with a 100%-density load of 55.0 grains. 60.0 grains under a 200 grain Lee bullet (kissing the leade) will put 10 shots under 1.5" at 100 yards, running in the 2000 FPS ZIP Code. Fun load, and it pushes back a bit--it gives a throaty report--and once I figured the Tennessee Elevation out I kept a 600 yard dinger plate ringing consistently at the Ridgecrest range before the wind kicked up in the afternoons.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
where's JW.
and BW you too.

this pertains to what both you guy's are doing.
look at it like this.
change the words h-110 and 1680 to say bulls-eye and green-dot or 4198/RL-7. [or h-335/4350 for that matter]
it's the same scenario.
we have just changed neck tension out for initial bullet resistance by using the rifle or by not being able to use the rifle for that initial pressure fight until the powder wins.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I've been dabbling in 6.8 and 223 but I still think 308-06' in terms of fast and slow powders . I can't even want , having played with some H110 , to have a functional 308 based case full . Of course reading 26.0 Unique in a belted mag case doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy but mostly because it is the same charge as the old duck loads of yore .

Back on track . I've become a fan of to slow to get hurt and predictable curves that do the same thing at the same place regardless of how big the relief valve is . 24-32 I like I4350 . 22-27 in small cases I'm liking H322 but H4198 lives here too . These are also playmates in 35-45 cal . If I were going to go into an oily slick coated bullet in a 308, x57,06' family cartridge I think I'd start with I 3031 . In an AR family cartridge maybe H or I 4198 . It might be a good place for 4227 .
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Ok , with H110 with the bullet kissing the bore. Considering the case volume in a 30-06.
Would not there be a chance of the legendary H110 pressure spike? Or would you be using enough powder to fill the case pretty full?
Same as reduced loads? Because of air space? Or would there be a long enough bullet to compensate for that?
Fiver said by not jumping the bullet you prevent this problem. Am I thinking backwards here? My thoughts are that the pressure held back, and the extra air space, would cause more of a problem.
 
Last edited:

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Never had the pressure spike with H110 but sure as hell did with some surplus WC820.
Load was a max charge with a 419421 in my 44 mag SRH. Neck tension was a bit light and crimp was loose. Way I saw it was this. Primer fired, bullet began to move as powder started to burn. As bullet moved volume increased and pressure dropped enough to let powder burn drop off. Bullet hits forcing cone and suddenly is retarded in forward motion. Increase in volume stops and powder burn Picks back up. Until pressure is enough to restart bullet motion nothing happens except pressure increasing rapidly. At this point the bullet is a bore obstruction and pressure spikes.
What makes me think this is what happened? A few rounds squibbed and bullet stuck in bore. A wad of unburned powder was found behind bullet in bore. That wad of powder told me it wasn’t an uncharged case.
I stopped shooting and took ammo home. I added a massive crimp and went back and fired the remaining ammo.

That start, stop, stick action is not a good thing.
 

Intheshop

Banned
I don't paint bullets so didn't feel any input would add to the discussion.

Further,jamming bullets is a really tough subject to write about. Each bullet,by design...AND by default(out of roundness) is going to need a different fit respective to that particular chamber leade. And it gets much more involved from a metrology/repeatability standpoint because each of us has our own tolerance acceptablility. How a curved surface(ogive) is measured is bad enough,how "that" measure then interfaces with another surface(leade).... well,that's a tough nut to crack.
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Load was a max charge with a 419421 in my 44 mag SRH. Neck tension was a bit light and crimp was loose. Way I saw it was this. Primer fired, bullet began to move as powder started to burn. As bullet moved volume increased and pressure dropped enough to let powder burn drop off. Bullet hits forcing cone and suddenly is retarded in forward motion.
OK,makes sense. I would think high pressure followed by a quick release, is a lot easier on the chamber, than 2 consecutive spikes.
Yielding a jack hammer effect.
Side note would not the said, "waxed up" powder coat bullet, cull the secondary pressure spike quite a bit, making it less of an issue.
 
Last edited:

fiver

Well-Known Member
it would.
when your using something/anything like H-110 in the 0-6 case your really talking about 19-20 grains.
this basically matches the speed of 2400 at the 18gr level.
a case full of H-110 could be more than metal removal from the rifle-- pressure, it creates gas faster than the bullet moving away allows pressure to drop.
sometimes it's easier to go the other way and come back [using tension and a jam and maybe a filler] to increase pressures higher and higher rather than trying to use a faster powder to get the burn speed your looking for.

Emmett remember small amounts of fast powders does not mean small pressures.
quite often the exact opposite is true.
a lot of it has to do with available volume at the time the powder is consumed.
every graph will show a double spike in pressure, a real sensitive tool will show the firing pin hitting the case.
anyway the initial rise will be interrupted by a little spike and a slight drop and them a smoother rise in pressure. [you can quite often draw a line right under the spike continuing the pressure line]
followed by either a straight down pressure release, or by a short period of pressure and a gradual drop off.



this ties into this scenario perfectly, throw red-dot in the mix.
bump the powder volume up to say 10-12 grains and your suddenly pushing 50K same as you'd be using with a full jacketed load.
the only thing that would keep the pressure down is to move the bullet back so it is moving when it hits steel, or to reduce the friction and diameter so the bullet just pushes straight into the rifling at a certain pressure level before maximum is met.
the bullet moving is the key to both scenarios.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Red Dot, I still love it for cast. For years 13.0 of Red Dot was "The Load" as suggested by a pretty smart gun writer. I used lbs of it in everything from 7x57 to 35 Whelen. A decade later I find out it's a real high pressure load. I sort of had a theory rattling around in my head that yes, there's a pressure spike, a high one. But how long that spike lasts is very crucial to what happens. I sort of relate it to the myth that cast bullets "melt", especially the plain bases, as a cause of leading. Yes, there's enough raw temp from the burning powder to melt a lead alloy, but there has to be time for the heat thransfer to take place. Not enough time to melt lead, not enough time to cause leading. Sort of the same thing with pressure spikes. How long that spike lasts is going to determine if that spike is going to do damage or not. I bet many of us have run our bare hands through a flame, but we didn't hold it there. Same idea.

Someone mentioned burn rate charts not being a step ladder type list, but a list of relative rates. I would go further and say they are even less than that. It's not one step to the next, it's not every step is 2 or 5 or 10% faster. It might be 5 powders that are all within 1% and then the next one is 17% faster. Some people don't get that idea. It's not like a line of wrenches where each one is 1/16" larger than the last.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
That Powder Company A's burn rate chart differs from that of Powder Company B says much.
The latest from Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester is absent IMR 4320, though most likely a proofreading mistake.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't count on that.
they dropped or just relabeled other powders not too long ago and they have about 10 new enduron powders looking to fill their place.

I don't know what the future of powder looks like.
but right now it's too crowded and overlapped [and over priced] this leads to someone going out of business, not price lowering.
usually it's the one that thinks their powder has pixie dust in it and carry's the highest price tag.

Bret touched on how I see powders too.
I see them in little family groups clustered together with minor little burn rate, ignition, and burn time differences between them.
sometimes a powder at either end of the scale moves into another group as the fast or the slow one.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Red Dot Is a Good Light load powder .........However "The Load" is insane as far as I'm concerned. I have shot it in my 98 mauser and GEW! It hurts my shoulder and I feel it is far too much pressure ....It is very accurate though.
The most amount Red Dot I use anymore is Around 9 Grains Max! & that is behind a 230 gr FN cast in .358 Win It is a tack driver
My average RD loads are 3 to 5 grains in most of my rifles.

where's JW.
and BW you too.

this pertains to what both you guy's are doing.
look at it like this.
change the words h-110 and 1680 to say bulls-eye and green-dot or 4198/RL-7. [or h-335/4350 for that matter]
it's the same scenario.
we have just changed neck tension out for initial bullet resistance by using the rifle or by not being able to use the rifle for that initial pressure fight until the powder wins.


I'm here following this great thread! However I 'm getting a bit lost ....You guys ( Especially you, fiver ) have a fantastic understanding of what takes place the first few nano-seconds after ignition! I'm always amased!
It is like trying to Understand / Explain "the event horizon" at a black hole to someone
Jim
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty good with outer space stuff too...LOL.

anything your not sure on ask.
I start these threads so we all can have a better understanding on what we are doing.
that and I will forget stuff if we don't talk about it.

it probably gets a little confusing because not all of the powders act the same under the same circumstances and some powders will change around their position depending....
I have seen the same basic powder burn speed [4895] from three manufacturers flip flop burn rates from cartridge to cartridge and within the same cartridge based on start pressure and bullet weight.
that one takes more splainin as Ricky used to say.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Hold on Fiver! You actually want to understand what we're doing? Are you nuts?!!! If we start deep thinking like that we will surely figure out this is all a waste of time and money that could better be spent on a golf course or at a casino!!!!!! Egads man! What were you thinking! ;)
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Golf course or casino?
I don't do either, so will spend my time trying to decipher all this hypothetical and esoteric cast bullet stuff. :confused:
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I infest a casino about 1-3 times a year, most often as an adjunct to a gun show visit. If you EVER find me on a golf course, assume that I have been abducted by aliens and put me out of my misery. What a decadent, land-wasting yuppie trash sport--think of the rifle ranges and pistol bays that could be made from the land space taken up by one stinkin' GOLF COURSE.
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
My Savage 340 30-30 is a well shot rifle. Playing around one day I loaded up a box of 165gr RD bullets sized to .311" after powder coating and no gas check. 6.2gr of Redot was the powder charge and a LRP was used. I was impressed with how well the load shot. Just enough crimp to remove the flare from the case mouth. Sitting in the bed of my pickup and resting off my knees produced a 10 shot group that measured 1.8"
Nothing spectacular but for it's intended purpose, general plinking and possible small game, it will work well. These were a bit under 1100fps.
Loads were crimped into the crimp groove. So. Theses had
A. A light crimp
B. A pretty good jump to the lands.
C. A small charge of fast powder.
Take it for what it is but it's my go to light plinking load with this rifle now.