hypothetical situation
- Thread starter fiver
- Start date
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
I will be shooting my JES cut .358 Win tomorrow morning ( Vanguard) Red Dot 9.1 grains with NOE's 230 Ranch dog bullet!
Cases as fired from last time No Sizing! Bullet drop fits in the neck! no crimp Seated to the lands (I load single shot)
Doesn't look like the best conditions because of winds but that is why I'm shooting the big calibers.
Weather here can not make up it 's mind some days in the 40-50's and the next in the 20-30's Winds are what come with those transitional days! At my house it could only be 12 mph but 10 minutes away on the range ( straight up the mountain... it may be 25-30 mph) you never know
Cases as fired from last time No Sizing! Bullet drop fits in the neck! no crimp Seated to the lands (I load single shot)
Doesn't look like the best conditions because of winds but that is why I'm shooting the big calibers.
Weather here can not make up it 's mind some days in the 40-50's and the next in the 20-30's Winds are what come with those transitional days! At my house it could only be 12 mph but 10 minutes away on the range ( straight up the mountain... it may be 25-30 mph) you never know
waco
Springfield, Oregon
I have not....
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Well I said I was going out with my 358 win this morning....( wish I didn't it was plain miserable!) 30 mph winds from the north west ( from the right on the range) Temps were not bad only about 26 but have no idea what the wind chill was like. Watery eyes Wind burned face Only shot 30 rounds ...3 ten shot groups! before I packed it in and sat in my warm jeep while my buddy Ed stuck it out for about 10 minutes more! Whose idea was to put a range on the top of a mountain?
Any way as I said these were the NOE 230 grain Ranch dogs sized .359" Ben's Red and BLL and aluminum checks ( I was gifted a nice bunch of those) CCI 200 primers; cases were 4x fired but not resized. The bullets were just seated into the case mouths by hand and the closing of the rifle bolt set the bullet depth. This seems to be an easy thing to do with 8 mm and up calibers. Yes you have to load one round at a time this way! I don't think anyone has to ask why.
I tried to shoot at the best time with the winds but they being consistent that didn't work. I just want to finish and get out of there.
As usual this was my last group that was the best It is 10 shots into 7/8" center to center I figured the wind extended the group to the left even at 50 yards. The first group was pretty tight except for the first and second shot from a clean bore!
That was what I call my max Red Dot Load of 9.1 grains My estimate of speed also would be about 1145 fps
Ok Just to show I wasn't fibbing this is target 1 The first shot going into the yellow bull (Clean cold barrel -Traditional lube)
Any way as I said these were the NOE 230 grain Ranch dogs sized .359" Ben's Red and BLL and aluminum checks ( I was gifted a nice bunch of those) CCI 200 primers; cases were 4x fired but not resized. The bullets were just seated into the case mouths by hand and the closing of the rifle bolt set the bullet depth. This seems to be an easy thing to do with 8 mm and up calibers. Yes you have to load one round at a time this way! I don't think anyone has to ask why.
I tried to shoot at the best time with the winds but they being consistent that didn't work. I just want to finish and get out of there.
As usual this was my last group that was the best It is 10 shots into 7/8" center to center I figured the wind extended the group to the left even at 50 yards. The first group was pretty tight except for the first and second shot from a clean bore!
That was what I call my max Red Dot Load of 9.1 grains My estimate of speed also would be about 1145 fps
Ok Just to show I wasn't fibbing this is target 1 The first shot going into the yellow bull (Clean cold barrel -Traditional lube)
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JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Granted I have never successfully shot a cast bullet from a rifle above 2200 fps ( 105 Noe 243 !)
I prefer Low Node shooting as close to the speed of sound or less ( Preferable) & at 50 yard because I see well at that range
This lets me shoot big like a 358 Win from a bench with heavy bullets and not tear up my shoulder neck or spine!
At the low node I have learned how to start bending and warping the matrix of loading cast bullets at low speeds. The physics of what we learned and what should be are sometimes thrown out the window!
fiver...I hope I'm getting you excited with all this warping time space continuum? We are bending "time" here!
Maybe even ignition time! Mind blowing!
I prefer Low Node shooting as close to the speed of sound or less ( Preferable) & at 50 yard because I see well at that range
This lets me shoot big like a 358 Win from a bench with heavy bullets and not tear up my shoulder neck or spine!
At the low node I have learned how to start bending and warping the matrix of loading cast bullets at low speeds. The physics of what we learned and what should be are sometimes thrown out the window!
fiver...I hope I'm getting you excited with all this warping time space continuum? We are bending "time" here!
Maybe even ignition time! Mind blowing!
fiver
Well-Known Member
230gr. at 1100 fps is getting into 44 mag territory but with all kinds of penetration.
if you think about it we are discussing where in time a bullet is,,, in nanoseconds.
in nanoseconds of time the entire universe was created and moved millions of light years apart.
we ain't going that far,,, but between firing pin contact and hole in paper we are talking part of a tenth of a second even at 1,000 fps.
seems fast, but an asteroid the size of manhattan can eclipse that by 50 times without even trying.
if you think about it we are discussing where in time a bullet is,,, in nanoseconds.
in nanoseconds of time the entire universe was created and moved millions of light years apart.
we ain't going that far,,, but between firing pin contact and hole in paper we are talking part of a tenth of a second even at 1,000 fps.
seems fast, but an asteroid the size of manhattan can eclipse that by 50 times without even trying.
I was gonna put this in the what's up today thread but folks are so busy in there cooking great food,didn't want it getting "eaten"?(hardy har).
I'm extremely hesitant to slow down engineering advances by dwindling on what seem like small details at the time..... Meaning,once we get this 15k lb chunk of ____ moving,uhhh,why stop to smell the particulars?
So seeing as the ya'll got the whole universe "moving",let me add. Very simply.
Pay more attention to the "innards" of your seating die. And do NOT assume,throwing $$ at the issue makes the job any less tedious. Not advocating breaking out the six sigma either..... this is,or can be done a whole lot simpler. Just sayin,was loading some 6mmR yesterday and even though the RCBS 95g mould drops perfect proportioned noses that are a few .0001's over sized for the chamber leade.....
The seater die says different. Think about your seater die internal dimensions. Measure if you want to. Just sayin,a whole lot of folks are leaving something on the table when it comes to seating.
I'm extremely hesitant to slow down engineering advances by dwindling on what seem like small details at the time..... Meaning,once we get this 15k lb chunk of ____ moving,uhhh,why stop to smell the particulars?
So seeing as the ya'll got the whole universe "moving",let me add. Very simply.
Pay more attention to the "innards" of your seating die. And do NOT assume,throwing $$ at the issue makes the job any less tedious. Not advocating breaking out the six sigma either..... this is,or can be done a whole lot simpler. Just sayin,was loading some 6mmR yesterday and even though the RCBS 95g mould drops perfect proportioned noses that are a few .0001's over sized for the chamber leade.....
The seater die says different. Think about your seater die internal dimensions. Measure if you want to. Just sayin,a whole lot of folks are leaving something on the table when it comes to seating.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
A similar design and weight out of a Whelen will kill tough old woodchucks dead as can be going just a little faster. Coyotes are easier to anchor than 'chucks IME. In lower end shooting the only problem is getting the target in a range where drop isn't a big issue. No one would question using a 44 mag at those speeds as Fiver noted, and the sectional density of a .358x230gr is way more than a .429x230gr. People kill deer with guns of less potential every fall.
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Ian
Notorious member
Yes they are. I'll wager they leave even more on the table when it comes to their choice of resizing die and how they adjust it. Same too can be said for their method of expanding necks for uniform and proper tension on the bullet. If you get the case sized without overworking it and expanded for only about 1.5 thousandths tension with an adequate but not excessive bellmouth, your seating die quality and style is of much less importance.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I was just reading an article on trying to match factory ammo for accuracy.
the writers opinion was a good part of the accuracy was that cases come from the factory straighter than from a reloaders press.
I know I had some clunker presses in the past because I measured my cases before and after firing them.
the cases were coming out of the rifle straighter than they went in.
part of it I'm sure has to do with the stretch a case sees when it's fired.
you just created striated lines within the case as it expanded and pushing and pulling on it crooked doesn't help those lines stay straight and in fact makes the thin spots worse on both sides of the case.
I'm a proponent of firing a case with a high pressure load it's first time out the gate this insures you have the most alignment of the molecules within the case and the best copy of the rifles chamber your gonna get.
don't screw that up, and don't exploit the weak spots in the case.
the writers opinion was a good part of the accuracy was that cases come from the factory straighter than from a reloaders press.
I know I had some clunker presses in the past because I measured my cases before and after firing them.
the cases were coming out of the rifle straighter than they went in.
part of it I'm sure has to do with the stretch a case sees when it's fired.
you just created striated lines within the case as it expanded and pushing and pulling on it crooked doesn't help those lines stay straight and in fact makes the thin spots worse on both sides of the case.
I'm a proponent of firing a case with a high pressure load it's first time out the gate this insures you have the most alignment of the molecules within the case and the best copy of the rifles chamber your gonna get.
don't screw that up, and don't exploit the weak spots in the case.
Well irrespective of what sizing and expander you happen to use..... I'm talking when "oversized",by JB stds,bullets don't fit into the seater die. This is what's taking place on this particular RCBS 6mm seater. I'm not complaining. Bullets are .245 as cast going in the seater. If they aren't dead nuts straight before going in,they are going to get a slick,skid mark right down the nose.
These bullets were some of the first cast from the mould,not broke in yet. They're a little rough and out of round. Which although entirely fixable,it's not worth the effort..... cast better,doh.Amazing how well they group?
This bullet has the custom top punch that is one of the slickest things to ever come off a machine here. It's not like bumping the Lee 285-130..... also not like nose sizing the RCBS145SIL. It's hard to put into words. Anyway.... there's room for improvement right at the GC sizing time.
One method is to take the top punch,which comes to within,.005" of the top drive band....and bring it to bear against the top of the inhouse H&I die. This works fine but,another method sees it with a gap by running the lower die "stop" up.... now if someone just had a 1/4" torque wrench and the matching female "socket". This assembly would replace the Lyman 4500 handle... still serves as a handle but you can record the torque on the GC seating and any minor swaging that may occur.
I can do that by feel on bumping the Lee 130. It also gives an EXCELLENT "visual" because it's going from a RN to a meplat. As mentioned in the past,Stevie Wonder can gauge the bump on this bullets nose,it'sthat easy. The RCBS145 is sized utilizing similar checks N balance because.... the first is rotational measure on the little jewelry C frame press handle(clocking) the "check" comes from a depth measure whilst still in the die.
That's where the torque wrench can get used. Not too terribly dissimilar from torqing actions. You have wrench clocking and witness Mark's but the torque wrench adds #'s to it WITHOUT adding another op. In the world of BMW(bring more wallet) dead serious BR handloading,"they" are using,I think they're called hydro seaters? Really should know figuring how much time I spend on the 6mmBR site...doh. Anyway,it's a pressure gauge that sits on top of an inline seater. It too,once installed,dosen't add any extra steps. You still pull the press handle. The gauge just measures and records the force.
Changing lanes,this is one difference in the beam type vs dial type torque wrenches. The dial type has a second pointer that records the highest point hit. Like a mechanical trigger pull gauge or cheap fish scale.
These bullets were some of the first cast from the mould,not broke in yet. They're a little rough and out of round. Which although entirely fixable,it's not worth the effort..... cast better,doh.Amazing how well they group?
This bullet has the custom top punch that is one of the slickest things to ever come off a machine here. It's not like bumping the Lee 285-130..... also not like nose sizing the RCBS145SIL. It's hard to put into words. Anyway.... there's room for improvement right at the GC sizing time.
One method is to take the top punch,which comes to within,.005" of the top drive band....and bring it to bear against the top of the inhouse H&I die. This works fine but,another method sees it with a gap by running the lower die "stop" up.... now if someone just had a 1/4" torque wrench and the matching female "socket". This assembly would replace the Lyman 4500 handle... still serves as a handle but you can record the torque on the GC seating and any minor swaging that may occur.
I can do that by feel on bumping the Lee 130. It also gives an EXCELLENT "visual" because it's going from a RN to a meplat. As mentioned in the past,Stevie Wonder can gauge the bump on this bullets nose,it'sthat easy. The RCBS145 is sized utilizing similar checks N balance because.... the first is rotational measure on the little jewelry C frame press handle(clocking) the "check" comes from a depth measure whilst still in the die.
That's where the torque wrench can get used. Not too terribly dissimilar from torqing actions. You have wrench clocking and witness Mark's but the torque wrench adds #'s to it WITHOUT adding another op. In the world of BMW(bring more wallet) dead serious BR handloading,"they" are using,I think they're called hydro seaters? Really should know figuring how much time I spend on the 6mmBR site...doh. Anyway,it's a pressure gauge that sits on top of an inline seater. It too,once installed,dosen't add any extra steps. You still pull the press handle. The gauge just measures and records the force.
Changing lanes,this is one difference in the beam type vs dial type torque wrenches. The dial type has a second pointer that records the highest point hit. Like a mechanical trigger pull gauge or cheap fish scale.