I believe I have a very special rifle

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
So, for fun, I wanted to compare Ian QL number with GRT numbers. Here are the numbers he gave me the other day. GRT number in boldface font.

Clays, 2.5 grains, 1,573 fps @ 13KPSI peak pressure, very spikey curve (pressure peaks at 1/2" bullet travel).
N/A on GRT

Win 231/HP38 3.6grains, 1,780 fps @ 12.7KPSI peak pressure, peak at 1" of bullet travel.
GRT-1824 fps @ 13.3 Kpsi for 231 and 1830 fps @ 13.8 Kpsi for HP-38

Universal, 3.2 grains, 1,705 fps @ 10.5KPSI peak pressure, peak at 1.2" of bullet travel.
GRT - 1701 @ 10.2Kpsi

Unique, 3.3 grains, 1,709 fps @ 9.3KPSI peak pressure, peak at 1.2" of bullet travel
GRT - 1742 @ 9.6Kpsi

2400 6 grains 1773fps no pressure given
GRT - 6.0 grains 1840fps at 7.9Kpsi

And you were right about the 2400 smoldering, Ian. According to GRT, only 75% of the powder burns in the barrel.

Here is a screenshot of the GRT screen. Looks a lot like your QL screen

1668722954712.png
 

Ian

Notorious member
If I go by what I've learned from Ian about the "smoldering" pressures I will get in this little case, none of the powders in the GRT software looks very promising. . It is almost like that little case and bullet just does not want to play in a 1400-1500 fps world.

You're catching the drift Lamar and I were sending your way.

I don't understand why you're afraid of some velocity. You have what, a 15" ROT? I can give you a 3400 FPS load that is 10K under maximum rated pressure, not that I'm advocating that, either, but with gas checks---and even fixed ammunition--- 2K fps should be the beginning of a sweet spot. I have shot .22-caliber groups better than what your rifle is demonstrating so far at over 3,000 fps in both 7 and 9" twist barrels, not that I expect they could do much better than they did or were in the accuracy "sweet spot", but to illustrate that adhering to what I consider an unfounded, artificial self-limitation isn't getting you what you want.

If it were my rifle I'd be looking at 11-14 grains of Reloder 7.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
Like I said, I am new to all this stuff. My experience to date has been with .30 cal rifles and that has shown that 1450 fps is the sweet spot for them. If I have to push this little .22 faster, I'm not opposed to it. I'm certainly not "afraid" do to it. My concerns are leading the barrel. But that might be a non-issue. But you are right, I am self-limiting here. Maybe I should be going up in velocity, not down. That certainly opens the door to more powder choices.

I ran 11-14 gr of R7 thru GRT. The powder burn is not reaching 100%. Does that not mean that it cause more violent gas release behind the bullet at the muzzle. I had the impression that 100% powder burn in the barrel was a goal for accuracy.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Velocity does not mean certain leading. Got to get that outta your head first. FIT! You may have to change your alloy though.
 

Ian

Notorious member
The only time velocity causes leading is when the land pressure on the sides of the bullet engraves exceeds the alloy's ability to not melt from surface friction and rub off, causing gas leaks, bullet ablation, and particle deposition in the bore. Harder, lower melt point alloys are worse than high velocity for several reasons, not the least of which is the inability to conform to the barrel at lower pressures near the muzzle.

Low muzzle pressure does not equal better groups any more than a clean-burning powder, low ES/SD, or low velocity does. Some of the best loads I have are dirty, but for sure not all of them. Not all of my clean-burning loads with great chronograph numbers and low muzzle pressure shoot well, in fact not many of them did. The only way to tell in YOUR system is try stuff and see. I'm not saying ignore muzzle pressure or burn %, but don't let it rule your thinking, either.

What I look for in a good model is a gentle pressure rise, enough peak pressure to burn the particular powder well enough (based mostly on my own empirical data of what it takes to get a consistent burn with a given powder in a given cartridge case), good case fill, and how the powder seems to be reacting in the case as I increase or decrease the charge weight in the model. Often I'm looking for the lowest muzzle pressure possible while meeting all my other requirements for the load simply because I use gun mufflers and want to reduce the heat and stress on them to the minimum. NFA items are expensive to repair because only an 07 FFL can legally perform the work. I also own and shoot a lot of gas-operated semi-auto rifles and am interested in port pressure. I've gotten to the point that I can tell if a load will cycle an AR simply by looking at the QL pressure curve and knowing the port size and location...saving me many trials and gas system adjustments in the route to finding a good load that does what I want it to. None of that applies to you in particular, so keep your options open regarding powder choice. 2400 seemed to want to work for you once you got it up to where it started burning better, I'd say 2200 fps is likely the sweet spot for it in your particular rifle/bullet combination. If you can't make it shoot well, try Unique again, just more of it. The CBA guys who shoot the .223 Rem use linotype and Titegroup. If they were using a more malleable alloy and knew how to prepare their brass and fit the bullets to their rifles in a different way than they're used to doing, they'd be having much more consistent results. Titegroup would be a good one for you, too, particularly because it doesn't exhibit the position sensitivity that 2400, Unique, 231, and Bullseye do at low loading densities. Clays is another one that has lower position sensitivity, but also a peakier curve and may require a little bit stiffer alloy than Titegroup would due to throat dynamics and fixed ammunition. If you breech seat, that removes a lot of variables and all you have to do is find a powder that burns consistently at the velocity the system likes and then tune it to match the rifle's harmonics.

There's a huge gap in data in all the loading manuals where the popgun cast bullet loads end and the jacketed bullet loads begin. This is where the thermodynamic models, our own generated chronograph data, and the manual info are all sort of assimilated and compared to get us into the range we want. Cast bullet performance has been sold short by all the big names since the beginning and I feel it is quite a sin. I'm not saying to not stay in the "easy zone" for accuracy loads velocity-wise, but don't think that zone means as low as you can poop a bullet out the muzzle, either.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
correct.
with those stubby bullets low and slow means edge of stabilization, especially since your not just shooting 5 foot like a cowboy shooter.
i almost never worry about muzzle pressure too much.
unless you got a chewed up crown, or bad rifling to contend with, muzzle pressure is just pressure pushing on the base of the bullet.
having it is actually a good thing if your just gonna use some high beeswax or micro-wax lube.
that's another subject of course but [shrug] there is that point down the barrel where it can start making you pull your hair out when combined with the right powder volume.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the detailed responses, guys.

Guess I will start over with an open mind. I will let the target and chrono tell me what is working along with help from GRT.

I like bumping up the velocity. Would love to shoot the Bee out to 500 yds. 300 is my goal. But 500 would be nice.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
The only time velocity causes leading is when the land pressure on the sides of the bullet engraves exceeds the alloy's ability to not melt from surface friction and rub off, causing gas leaks, bullet ablation, and particle deposition in the bore. Harder, lower melt point alloys are worse than high velocity for several reasons, not the least of which is the inability to conform to the barrel at lower pressures near the muzzle.

Low muzzle pressure does not equal better groups any more than a clean-burning powder, low ES/SD, or low velocity does. Some of the best loads I have are dirty, but for sure not all of them. Not all of my clean-burning loads with great chronograph numbers and low muzzle pressure shoot well, in fact not many of them did. The only way to tell in YOUR system is try stuff and see. I'm not saying ignore muzzle pressure or burn %, but don't let it rule your thinking, either.

What I look for in a good model is a gentle pressure rise, enough peak pressure to burn the particular powder well enough (based mostly on my own empirical data of what it takes to get a consistent burn with a given powder in a given cartridge case), good case fill, and how the powder seems to be reacting in the case as I increase or decrease the charge weight in the model. Often I'm looking for the lowest muzzle pressure possible while meeting all my other requirements for the load simply because I use gun mufflers and want to reduce the heat and stress on them to the minimum. NFA items are expensive to repair because only an 07 FFL can legally perform the work. I also own and shoot a lot of gas-operated semi-auto rifles and am interested in port pressure. I've gotten to the point that I can tell if a load will cycle an AR simply by looking at the QL pressure curve and knowing the port size and location...saving me many trials and gas system adjustments in the route to finding a good load that does what I want it to. None of that applies to you in particular, so keep your options open regarding powder choice. 2400 seemed to want to work for you once you got it up to where it started burning better, I'd say 2200 fps is likely the sweet spot for it in your particular rifle/bullet combination. If you can't make it shoot well, try Unique again, just more of it. The CBA guys who shoot the .223 Rem use linotype and Titegroup. If they were using a more malleable alloy and knew how to prepare their brass and fit the bullets to their rifles in a different way than they're used to doing, they'd be having much more consistent results. Titegroup would be a good one for you, too, particularly because it doesn't exhibit the position sensitivity that 2400, Unique, 231, and Bullseye do at low loading densities. Clays is another one that has lower position sensitivity, but also a peakier curve and may require a little bit stiffer alloy than Titegroup would due to throat dynamics and fixed ammunition. If you breech seat, that removes a lot of variables and all you have to do is find a powder that burns consistently at the velocity the system likes and then tune it to match the rifle's harmonics.

There's a huge gap in data in all the loading manuals where the popgun cast bullet loads end and the jacketed bullet loads begin. This is where the thermodynamic models, our own generated chronograph data, and the manual info are all sort of assimilated and compared to get us into the range we want. Cast bullet performance has been sold short by all the big names since the beginning and I feel it is quite a sin. I'm not saying to not stay in the "easy zone" for accuracy loads velocity-wise, but don't think that zone means as low as you can poop a bullet out the muzzle, either.
Awesome post Ian!!! "Ablation', that's one of those terms I'm always searching for but can never remember. This post should probably be cross posted in the "Fit" thread.

" There's a huge gap in data in all the loading manuals where the popgun cast bullet loads end and the jacketed bullet loads begin." That statement is also important. Once you get to a certain point, just adding more fast burning powder is out the window. That's no mans land for a lot of us. Taking the next step is a very iffy proposition for a lot of us because we just don't know how to proceed. Big gray area there.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I appreciate the detailed responses, guys.

Guess I will start over with an open mind. I will let the target and chrono tell me what is working along with help from GRT.

I like bumping up the velocity. Would love to shoot the Bee out to 500 yds. 300 is my goal. But 500 would be nice.
Some more "oomph" will also make wind issues a little easier to deal with.
 
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Missionary

Well-Known Member
There are parts of this "Drift" that could easy become a "Caliber .22" sticky. Very enjoyable to read positive encouragement with patience thrown in. Plus I get re-read it all and ponder if I am grasping jewels or are they fluttering away..
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
So, I'm sitting here after a fresh cup of coffee and plan to start with a different approach. Ian and others have made some good points. I suspect that you cannot apply past experience in other calibers to the .22 and assume it will fit/work and give the same results. Preconceived notions tend to bite us all on a regular basis and there is no reason to think they are not at play in the reloading world as well.

So, I am going to start with the loads Ian suggested. I do have a question. I have sat here thinking about it and am pretty sure I'll be embarrassed that it did not occur to me, but I have no idea what a 15" ROT is.

Sunny but cold today. Might be a good day for a trip to the range.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
ROT = Rate Of Twist

(I think!)
Yup, like I said, embarrassed. But in my feeble defense, mine is 16". Guess that's why it did not ring a bell.

I going to run some 2400 and Unique loads thru GRT and see what I get. Then will make up a ladder test for each and go to the range. Might be today. Still not set up to breech seat. Might set the bullets back to LCBH OAL numbers. That will provide a bit more starting friction.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
C.R.S., Sorry. I thought you said you rechecked it with a tighter patch and got 15.25" or something.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
Went to the range. It was a mixed bag. Loading the test loads took forever although I did develop a few techniques for the gas checks and using taco shell powders in my Uniflow.

I loaded 3 powders
2400 - 8.0, 7.5 and 7.0 gr
Unique - 5.0, 4.5 and 4.0
Universal - Quit shooting so will report on that after next trip to the range.

Here is the target. The first mistake I made was trying to get the testing done today. Light got low in the sky and the chrono ran out of light to record the velocities. The uppper left target was aimed at the lower left. Two different powders and both of them got me. I circled the groups to make it clear. Neither was worth the ink used to circle them.

7.5 of 2400 shows promise. Although 1 shot is off the target. Pretty sure it went high as I saw a hole in the backer. 7 gr of 2400 did it again. One shot went wild. Next best group was 4.0 gr of Unique in the lower right. If the outlier to the right was removed, that's 1MOA. Wish I had data for that load/group. But I can repeat the load next time when I refine the ladder tests.

20221118_173054a.jpg


I had forgotten my rear bag. But I'm pretty steady shooting off my fist from the matches at Wilton. Need to toss that bag in the SUV and just leave it in there.

I think I'll do a finer step ladder for Unique tomorrow and shoot those along with the Universal. I had barely enough Universal to cover the neck of the Uniflow. Need to compare todays target and data with last trip. Curious if ES and SD are similar for the tight Unique and 2400 groups from that day. Wife is calling. Appetizers are ready.
 
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popper

Well-Known Member
List of many case capacities. Bee is 18gr., smaller than BO. Haven't decided if magnum primers are better for 2400. My early experience with light unique loads without filler were poor ignition/burn also. I don't and won't shoo/cast for 22. Remember, fps is a function of FORCE and area of base. Smaller bore, higher psi for same fps. And the bullet must be almost perfect. Try a tougher alloy.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
Cartridge info, jacketed bullet info, burn rate table etc. Nothing on alloys.

I would suggest that you download the tool to your computer. Put it on a flash drive if you are worried about spam. That's what I did. And that is what the instructions recommend. It will run off the flash drive.

Here is an example screen. When you select the screen, the tool does the math to calculate case volume.

1668815370473.png
 
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