I do Like an ACP Revolver.

[Petrol & Powder]

The 147 grain bullet in the 9mm Luger cartridge was, and still is, a bad idea.
It was originally developed as a subsonic loading for use with suppressors, often suppressed submachine guns.
It is a terrible performer in a pistol when used as a self-defense load.

While the 147 grain bullets can be very accurate, it's terminal performance is poor.
Not long after the 9mm craze hit American Law Enforcement, the "heavier must be better" bad idea fairy appeared. After some spectacular failures with the 147 grain slugs, most agencies realized the 115-125 grain weight range is where the 9mm projectiles need to be.

 

[Bret4207]

I can tell you 1st hand that whatever the FBI was smoking when it came up with that 147 crap must have been pretty good stuff. The "heavy for the caliber" idea goes back a long ways and worked great in cartridges like the 38 S+W and Special with their "Super Police" loadings. A 200 gr FRN hits hard even at it's lower FPS and from what I've read of material from the day, they were better than the standard RN by far when it came to convincing people to cease and desist their anti-social activities. The 147 stuff we had was also somewhat "pointy" to my eye. We had multiple instances of it skidding off the skull of car struck deer with frontal shots. Not at all inspiring as far as confidence went. I'm pretty sure that was the stuff that I had require 2 shots to end a deers suffering with a side shot between eye and ear. It looked like the first round sort of broke the bone and the second went in. That was in front of a crowd of agitated bystanders (drunks) and it didn't sit well with them or me. It was simply odd acting stuff. The 124+p+ stuff that we got after a couple years was much better, certainly not in 357 territory, but a lot better.

 

[CZ93X62]

Jello shooters in white lab coats come up with some skewed results......with great frequency.

 

[Rick H]

First the FBI gave us 90 gr. 38 sp. and 110 gr. 357's based on their "accurate computer modeling and consultation with eminent MD's"
We saw how that worked out. I'm sorry but the FBI has a miserable record when it comes to that sort of stuff. Frankly they are clueless and seem to go from one extreme to another every 20-30 yrs. Do you think someone is getting paid off to start another LEO purchase change over ever so often?

 

[358156 hp]

Interesting point Rick. Every time the FBI changes calibers, it's to a bipolar opposite of what they already had.

 

[CZ93X62]

Famous But Incompetent. I won't even pretend to understand what agenda FBI is trying to service via their conflicting and inconsistent ammunition recommendations. That whole "9mm Subsonic JHP" scam has a lot more to do with recoil accommodation and ease of "qualification" with training expense reduction than actual terminal effectiveness. If you set your standards at Lowest Common Denominator, your troops will race each other to the bottom of the curve, very predictably. Training for excellence requires time and expense--most agencies can afford that for 8-20 personnel, and you form a SWAT team of that size. The rest of your people get a minimum of time and expense invested, and "qualify" on an unchallenging course of fire 1 to 3 times per year. A soft-recoiling load with moderate report like that of the 147 grain 9mm JHP lends itself to this environment nicely.

Thankfully, most of the troops I worked with were aware of the load's limitations, and opted to carry 40 S&W or 45 ACP. We got shot at often enough during the latter half of my career that it prompted some concern on the part of our folks at the tip of the spear to carry real guns with real & decisive ammunition, and to cultivate some skill with fire discipline and placement.

 

[Bret4207]

First the FBI gave us 90 gr. 38 sp. and 110 gr. 357's based on their "accurate computer modeling and consultation with eminent MD's"
We saw how that worked out. I'm sorry but the FBI has a miserable record when it comes to that sort of stuff. Frankly they are clueless and seem to go from one extreme to another every 20-30 yrs. Do you think someone is getting paid off to start another LEO purchase change over ever so often?

I think you just could have stopped there.

 

[CZ93X62]

I am not here to say that ALL FBI folks are wastrels of ineptitude--far from it. Most of their field agents and venue specialists are truly capable and competent people. I feel sorry for those folks in these days in which FBI's upper admin pogues are displaying their derrieres with such crass and shallow arrogance. These fine field people deserve far better.

 

[david s]

Wasn't the FBI computer man of the 1970's the one where the 380 ACP or 32 Auto received a negative wounding rating? So if you were shot with the correct one you felt better.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The larger the bureaucracy the bigger the mess. While there are many capable individual agents, (I've known several) the organization as a whole is a disaster. The bigger the agency, the bigger the disaster.
It's just a sad fact of any organization.

 

[Bret4207]

I am not here to say that ALL FBI folks are wastrels of ineptitude--far from it. Most of their field agents and venue specialists are truly capable and competent people. I feel sorry for those folks in these days in which FBI's upper admin pogues are displaying their derrieres with such crass and shallow arrogance. These fine field people deserve far better.

You're kinder than I am Al. Leave me hanging once, shame on you. Leave me hanging multiple times, screw that noise!

 

[CZ93X62]

I can't honestly grind on FBI very hard. Same story with DEA and U.S. Customs/Border Patrol. Just lucky, I guess.

 

[Bret4207]

USBP was always good guys, even the jerks were good guys. DEA I never dealt with, Customs/Immigration was a different crew pre-9/11. They got some real wing nuts after the Towers fell. BATFE, same thing. Just a complete lack of common sense and proportion IMO.