I need a bigger hammer

[CZ93X62]

Some years ago on a NV varmint hunt north of Winnemucca, a friend of the guys i was hunting with brought out an AR-10 in 263 Waters. NICE RIFLE--his loads using IMR-4350 (IIRC) ran 140 grain J-words in the 2500-2550 FPS realm, which was his velocity goal. His theory--FWIW--is that most commercial j-word bullets in 6.5 caliber "assume" usage in milsurp Swede rifles, and are constructed for controlled expansion within 300 yards/meters of a 2450-2500 FPS start speed. His view was that my 2700 FPS start speed with 140 grain J-words called for Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX/TTSX.

Not a good place to say such heresies, I know--but there are venues where cast bullets might not be the best choice when hunting. The "Under 30 Caliber For Pig Hunting" niche might be one such environment. Back in black-powder front-stuffer round-ball days, bigger/nastier critters = bigger/nastier round-balls. Elongated bullets give us the potential for deeper penetration--longer engagement ranges--and higher velocities, but the original Big Bullets For Big Critters concept remains a sound one. The ultralight tackle fetishes of "Fyshyng Withe An Angyl" don't always translate to the game fields seamlessly.

 

[fiver]

I have a handful of boxes of 100gr interlocks, and a few of the 120gr HP's too, but this rifle doesn't care for the 120's too much.
the 100gr accubonds are long bullets too so they got a pass.
i'll probably stay with the interlocks after trying a few on some deer, I know the sierra 100's work pretty good on them, the first deer I shot with the 0-6 was with them.
I just wish they'd stiffen up that speer bullet to be a bit more 'controlled' in it's expansion.

 

[CZ93X62]

Lamar's post #282 brings to mind a long dissertation given by the late Kenny Maugle, rangemaster at the now-defunct Inland F&G Association where Buckshot & Co. held the weekly Burrito Shoots. His thoughts were that the 25-06 was a great game caliber, but the usual 1-10" twist rates given to those barrels were not sufficiently fast to stabilize the 117-120 spitzer boat tails that gave the 25-06 its purported bullet weight advantage over the 243/6mm. Ken's view was that the 25-06 with a 1-9" or 1-8" twist would be a better large game tool.

"Aight", says I. I told Kenny that I didn't believe in half-measures--if I was intent on burning out a barrel's throat in 500 rounds I would just opt for a 264 Win Mag and build that Weatherby free-bore we all dream about the old-fashioned way. Kenny smiled and shook his head--"You gotta stop working dope, Allen. It warps you something awful." No argument there.

I surely do miss Kenny, and the range he worked at for so long.

 

[Ole_270]

I've still got 4 boxes of the Interlocks and picked up 6 boxes of the Hot Cores for safe keeping in case they discontinue it too. I tried the 110 Accubond in the Roberts, several boxes of them, and never got groups I was happy with. There are posts across the web of people claiming to have had terminal failures with the 110. I really need to give the 100 Ballistic tip a try on game, but being older, stubborn, and maybe a bit diminished in brain power, I have this crazy notion that the classics like the 250-3000 and 257 Roberts should be shooting soft points not plastic tips. Somebody once had a signature line that read "Real bullets don't have plastic tips". To me that fits the classic cartridges well.

 

[L Ross]

I've still got 4 boxes of the Interlocks and picked up 6 boxes of the Hot Cores for safe keeping in case they discontinue it too. I tried the 110 Accubond in the Roberts, several boxes of them, and never got groups I was happy with. There are posts across the web of people claiming to have had terminal failures with the 110. I really need to give the 100 Ballistic tip a try on game, but being older, stubborn, and maybe a bit diminished in brain power, I have this crazy notion that the classics like the 250-3000 and 257 Roberts should be shooting soft points not plastic tips. Somebody once had a signature line that read "Real bullets don't have plastic tips". To me that fits the classic cartridges well.

Been shooting a 250-3000 Ruger 77 International since the early 1980's. My favorite woods deer bullet is the 117 grain Hornady round nose. I can just squeak 2,600 fps out of it, actually chrono'd. It just works. It has exited every deer I've ever shot with it and leaves about a 1" exit wound. I'm guessing the twist is a little sketchy and the groups at 200 yards are about 5", but the farthest I've ever shot a deer with it was 135 long paces over rough ground. 87 grain Hornady spire point group very well and I used those on a 1989 Wyoming antelope hunt out to 250 yards. I do remember one season my wife shot Nosler Ballistic tips 100 grain at about 2,700 fps, one buck, bang flop, only a 30 yard shot though. Not unusual for our hardwoods.

 

[popper]

Starline makes the basic brass if you want to go that way. 7-08 should be a good one for the ar10. 338 & 358 too. 338 probably the easiest to make from 308 cases. 7-09 needs to be neck turned? Nothing against the 300 Ham'r, BO will do the job fine. 6.5 seems to get the nod for longer range hog hunting.
Umm, just got a plate of lemon-meringue pie in front of me! Bye.

 

[RBHarter]

25-08 is spelled Souper on my die set .

I have the NOE 260-120 FP . I'm hoping I have a valid alloy to make it a valid medium or light big game bullet in the 257 . I'm pretty confident with the 27&28 cal at near jacketed speeds in 6.8 cases . Of course there's always jackets if it doesn't work out .

 

[Sudden Thunder]

I'm a lot disappointed right now with my 300 Blackouts for killing pigs. This afternoon the guy that owns the property behind whwere I work called for someone to come shoot a pig that broke through his fence if they wanted the meat. I said sure, no problem, lemme grab my AR and I'll be there in two minutes. Well, turns out there were two of them, maybe 130-150 lbs, trotting along the back fence at about 120 yards, so I found the front one's nose in the crosshairs and opened up. Not enough lead, hit the back one twice broadside, about 4-5' back from poa. So I pulled ahead some more and kept spraying. They changed directions and I repeated, to no effect. I could here a miss ricochet off a rock once in a while amid the loud impacts. Finally they got back through the fence and away into the hills. I picked up fourteen pieces of brass and the landowner said he counted 11 hits, which is about what I had figured. We found a few little spats of blood but not much. Never even got a squeal! He thought the whole episode was hilarious and kidded me that he meant bring a rifle, not my airsoft rig, but I was not a little perturbed because I got a few solid neck/shoulder in each of them and they barely even noticed. Might as well have been airsoft.

So that led me to some furious internet browsing this evening and a lot of re-visiting my pig gun philosophy. I built a suppressed, short .458 Socom for just this scenario (it was at home this afternoon, of course) and it is magnificent at destroying wild pigs....if they are hit. A trotting pig can require several feet of lead at 100 yards when using sub-sonic loads, and piggies have a tendency to stop and start and change directions constantly, so even if you have the drop estimated correctly the pig can simply walk away from the bullet before it gets there. I never really thought that part through very well before, but now I'm facepalming.

So I need a new piggie hammer for longer ranges, like up to 250 yards. I don't want to have to break out the range finder to make a three-foot elevation correction if its 225 yards and not 190. I want a semi-auto.

Considerations are .375 Socom or 6.8 SPC for the AR-15, or .45 or .375 Raptor and build an LR-308.

One more option, and the one I just about have myself talked into at the moment would be to build the LR-308 as .358 Winchester. I dont have one and a bunch of you rave about how good they can be with cast bullets on the top end. I already have moulds and gas checks for the .35 Remington, and buckets of good LC brass. Besides, if I don't like it I can build another upper in .45 Raptor easily enough.

I also have a scoped, suppressable M1A that shoots pretty well with cast bullets and has killed pigs for me, but the .308 isn't any great shakes at putting pork on the ground real quick unless shot placement is near perfect.

What would you consider for a flat-shooting, medium-range pig hammer?

I would recommend you try .308 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tips , I sight in at 100 yards. They open up like hollow points.

 

[Ian]

Probably so, but did you read all 15 pages if this thread? Freebullet recommended 168 SMKs from his experience, similar concept.

However, the MP Molds 30-180 silhouette hollow point, cast of 13 BHN wheelweights plus a little tin, gas checked and powder coated and launched at 2460 fps at the muzzle of my 18" LR-308 are cheap, accurate, and hit hard out to 300 yards making big holes straight through piggies so I have no need to change.

 

[fiver]

I was simple,, 150gr gold dots in the 30-30... but noo.

 

[Ian]

Ha! If I did things the easy way, what would keep you amused all winter up there in Hoth?

 

[CZ93X62]

Well, crud. I clearly need to get out more often, and for longer timeframes. I had no idea that Speer even MADE Gold Dot rifle bullets. I am guessing that these are of the same or similar plated-"jacket" composition as their GD pistol bullet line....? Looking at the Speer site, the company claims some impressive bCs for their wares.

I am a huge fan of Speer Gold Dot handgun ammo. We use the 9mm +P loads in our carrynines (SIG P-226 for me and P-228 for SWMBO) owing to its velocity specs that hew closely to the caliber's original Euro CIP standard--1200 to 1225 FPS for the 124 grain JHPs. Those are loads that might do more than just piss off and re-motivate an assailant. I promised myself that I would NOT launch into another scathing attack on FBI, Facklerites, and their 9mm 147 grain Kinder Gentler 9mm ammo, so it is time to stop NOW.

 

[Hawk]

Popper,
I've got a 7.62x40 Wilson Tatical, nearly the same thing as the 300Ham'r. (I think they tweaked it and changed the name because the Tactical is more than a mouthful to say!).
I made brass from various brands of brass.
Be careful as neck wall thickness very from brand to brand of brass.
Lake City brass came out about right, but PPU and other brass came out much thicker, due to thicker case wall thickness, and had to be neck turned. That was a real pain! Process of trimming the brass back was made a lot easier by using a battery operated drill on my Forester lathe style case trimmer. Just be careful not to run it so fast as to heat up the blades.
Was trying to come up with a fire forming load with Accurates mold 31-155w,, powder coated, that comes out at about a hundred and fifty eight grains and w296, but without quick load, I was afraid of getting pressures up to high.
Anyway, you might want to try a few different brands before you end up with 500 pieces that have to be neck turned! (Like me!)

 

[popper]

150gr. G.D. BO version is supposed to expand down to 1400. They are accurate, run in the 1800s from my 10" pistol. ~2k from 16" carbine. Agree with Ian on the LR-308 & cast BUT you still have to hit them in the front 1/4 - the rest is GUT. Broadside shot on running pig @ 200 lead is 4' for 2k fps. And adjust for drop. Ian's problem was the subs, not the cal. I gut shot a carcass with 180gr soft alloy 30/30, pencil through with nothing leaking. Saw blood on the grass from one I shot (150 spp) from BO, must have grazed it - looked for 1/2 hr & never found it. Seems like hogs are in 1-2 or 15-20 bunches. A couple roamers or a pack near a good food supply. Those red deer exotics with no season?

 

[popper]

I neck turn all my converted BO brass - carbine is tight chambered. I run a 31-142D GC in the BO carbine, 16-17 gr. H110/296. Works fine. I was looking at the WT when it first came out, I can make it with the BO die but I have a LR-308 that works fine for heavier loads. Age makes it tough to carry an AR10 in the field so I've gone to the BO pistol.

 

[Hawk]

Sorry Popper. I went back and reread your posts.
For some reason, I was thinking you were going to build the 300Ham'r.
Brain fart on my part!

 

[fiver]

yeah,, Al I had got off speer years back when I couldn't get them to group very well in most of my rifles.

it seemed Hornady grouped well enough and done the Job the way I liked it in the field.
plus their prices were reasonable.
Sierra's always shot very well for me and I turned to them when I wanted the little holes close together on paper.
they just didn't perform like the hornady's did on game animals.
I have always doted on the gold dot hand gun bullets, they seemed just a bit tougher than the others and they always opened.
that's a pretty hard combination to beat.

when I found out about the gold-dot rifle bullets I started looking into them some, the 150's look to be perfectly suited to the 2400 fps MV of the 30-30 and still work in the 300's.
if Speer would do a secondary series for the up to 3-K crowd I would probably buy in with a big lifetime purchase.
heck if they would just up their jacket thickness maybe 2 thousands on all of their rifle type anything bigger than a cat hunting bullets, I'd do a happy dance, and become a shill of the highest order for them.

 

[freebullet]

Interesting comments..
Realize hitting the liver, kidneys, or spine creates instantaneous dropage to. When using a bullet/load combo that creates a 4-6" exit wound the drop zone gets much larger. With that kind of load lateral fragments will reach 8-12". When applied you can hit pretty far back & still go recover your game.

Looks like Ian found a splendid balance with cast. For the intended use I'd want a tiny scooch more blow up. The exit wound would be about 1" larger to be perfect in my mind. If the same alloy/velocity is used a bullet just a tad lighter would probably get it there.

The lr308 is a hefty girl, but ask Ian what his rifle weighs. Quite impressive how light he got it. That kind of firepower is ideal for fast paced multitarget hunting.

Maybe not necceasry for one tough old buck or hog but, for several hogs/deer or small parcel hunting it's seriously effective drt medicine.

 

[Ian]

It was really comforting to have 19 rounds of whoopass on tap and a good trigger when that herd of pigs came storming out of the trees right at me. Fortunately they were all small ones. If the policy hadn't been "eat all that you shoot" at this location and me picking eaters and trying to make meat-saving shots I would have opened up on them and likely downed quite a few more for the benefit of our "turkey condor" population.

The hollow points on these quite pointy bullets are very small and with the soft alloy mushroom very nicely in test media with good weight retention, so they aren't actually fragmenting like the target jax do. They also traveled in a straight line through both of these pigs which is pretty remarkable for the second pig because the first thing it hit was the heavy shoulder bone.

Keep in mind that pigs, even little ones, aren't deer so even with SMKs you won't see hand-sized exit holes. Pigs have heavy rib bones, much thicker body muscle layers, and a thick fat layer under the hide than the deer or antelope species and all that tissue soaks up impact like a sponge. Blowing up a bunch of ribs going in and out sure does make big enough holes that stay open and really messes up the stuff in between. While not quite grenades, I'm very happy with the results so far and expect the load and bullet I have here will still make two big holes at much longer range than these two pigs were.

 

[popper]

GD has 2 versions, bo & HV. Hornady 150 SPP is more accurate for me. No problem with the ar10, just heavy for me to carry and pretty heavy recoil for follow up shots.