I load/shoot 9mm Luger with cast bullets, using mainly the Lee 120 TC & Lee 125 RN. I size bullets to .358" and have to put a "generous" bell on the case mouths to avoid shaving lead when seating them. I have to use a taper crimp die to remove the bell and so that the slightly oversized rounds. For years I used the Lee FCD and/or a Hornady/Pacific TC die. But both have given me problems. After using them awhile I noticed that the case mouths on the 9mm cases had scratches in them. Those scratches came from the TC dies. I learned to polish with 400 grit sandpaper on a dowel, spun in a drill, but soon found after X no. of uses, I had the same issues. Mind you the brass was polished...I even went so far as do a SS pin cleaning on them...they looked factory new! This really bugged me as I don't have this issue with any other calibers (.30 M-1 Carbine/.40 S & W, .45 ACP). I came up with a solution. I took the Lyman carbide 9mm sizer die, removing the decapper assembly. I screwed it onto my press and carefully adjusted its' depth on a factory 9mm Luger round so that it just "kissed" the edge of the case neck. I locked it down. I then used this setup to Taper Crimp my reloaded cast rounds. I checked them in my pistol barrels: all passed the "plunk" test. No more unsightly scratches ---problem solved!!!!! The reason that this works is that the Lyman carbide 9mm sizer die has a carbide insert that is tapered....prefect for a taper crimp die!
Ideal 9mm Luger Taper Crimp die???????
- Thread starter Wallyl
- Start date
Reloader762
Active Member
Glad you got your problem solved. I haven't had that issue loading my 9 mm with cast bullets. I load the Lee 120 gr. TC, NOE 130 gr. HTC HP / CP / FN and NOE 124 gr. TC all powder coated and sized to .357"
The dies I use are a mix of both Lee and Lyman. Lee sizing / decapping die, Lyman expander die with two-step M expander, Lyman bullet seater die, taper set just to iron out the flair and the Lee FCD to just kiss the case mouth, I use a similar setup on my 45 ACP handloads using all Lyman dies with a Lee FCD on the tail end. Everything passes the plunk test and no scratches.
The reasons I use a mix of dies on the 9 mm is I picked up a set of Lyman 9 mm steel dies off eBay for $25 being sold as new / old stock awhile back and I like some of the features of the Lyman dies over the Lee's such as the M expander die and the bullet seater die with RN and FN seater plugs. Just in case anyone is wondering I've found no ill effects from using the Lee FCD on my 9 mm and 45 ACP handloads, I've tested it both ways with and without using the FCD and can tell no différance in accuracy at least as far as my shooting ability goes in my handguns or carbines.
The dies I use are a mix of both Lee and Lyman. Lee sizing / decapping die, Lyman expander die with two-step M expander, Lyman bullet seater die, taper set just to iron out the flair and the Lee FCD to just kiss the case mouth, I use a similar setup on my 45 ACP handloads using all Lyman dies with a Lee FCD on the tail end. Everything passes the plunk test and no scratches.
The reasons I use a mix of dies on the 9 mm is I picked up a set of Lyman 9 mm steel dies off eBay for $25 being sold as new / old stock awhile back and I like some of the features of the Lyman dies over the Lee's such as the M expander die and the bullet seater die with RN and FN seater plugs. Just in case anyone is wondering I've found no ill effects from using the Lee FCD on my 9 mm and 45 ACP handloads, I've tested it both ways with and without using the FCD and can tell no différance in accuracy at least as far as my shooting ability goes in my handguns or carbines.
Last edited:
Reloader762 The Lee FCD 9mm Luger die has a steel insert used to TC...what I found was after using it awhile I get scratches on the case mouth edges. I have polished them out w/400 grit sand paper on a dowel, but again, after some use, the case mouths get scratched up again.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Some cases have a really rough case mouth and it appears to me like some of that material tends to end up embedded in the taper crimp die walls when they crimp the case mouth from flared to a taper. Quality of some cases seems to have seriously gone downhill the last few years. Thinking this whole thing over, it does appear that a carbide insert in a crimping die has merit. I think I'll try it, but my first concern revolves around the potential to swage cast bullets down in size a bit, sort of like LEE FCDs do. I do have the same issue with embedded brass particles in many of my taper crimp dies. I see this potentially working well for tapered cases like 9mm, but wonder how straightwall cases like 45 ACP, and 10/40 would fare.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting solution.
If the scratches were not causing a problem, I would be inclined to ignore them.
When loading cast bullets, I feel that an expander that utilizes the Lyman "M" die profile is the best. That type of expander doesn't "bell" the case mouth like a funnel, but instead forms a "step" with parallel sides. That allows you to get the bullet started without shaving lead during the seating process. The main section of the expander should be nearly the same dimeter as your bullet. After being expanded, the brass will spring back a little bit and the resulting diameter will be slightly less than your bullet diameter. This will provide the necessary neck tension to hold the bullet without the casing sizing your bullet down.
I have found a lot of expanders are not well suited for cast bullets. They often don't expand to the correct diameter, they don't extend deep enough into the case or sometimes exhibit both problems.
If you have settled on a particular bullet, it may be worth obtaining a custom made expander that has the proper dimensions and a "M" die style "step".
When it comes to taper crimps, I'm sold on the Redding taper crimp die.
If the scratches were not causing a problem, I would be inclined to ignore them.
When loading cast bullets, I feel that an expander that utilizes the Lyman "M" die profile is the best. That type of expander doesn't "bell" the case mouth like a funnel, but instead forms a "step" with parallel sides. That allows you to get the bullet started without shaving lead during the seating process. The main section of the expander should be nearly the same dimeter as your bullet. After being expanded, the brass will spring back a little bit and the resulting diameter will be slightly less than your bullet diameter. This will provide the necessary neck tension to hold the bullet without the casing sizing your bullet down.
I have found a lot of expanders are not well suited for cast bullets. They often don't expand to the correct diameter, they don't extend deep enough into the case or sometimes exhibit both problems.
If you have settled on a particular bullet, it may be worth obtaining a custom made expander that has the proper dimensions and a "M" die style "step".
When it comes to taper crimps, I'm sold on the Redding taper crimp die.
Petrol & Powder The scratches are fairly deep and make the case mouths prone to split. IMHO it makes good good reloading sense to eliminate them. My RCBS die set has a funnel bell...I don't have a Lyman expander button in the 9mm Luger. A Lyman expander would be mo betta, but I don't have one. Redding is the Cadillac of reloading dies....I'll bet their TC die is hardened to eliminate any scratching. I agree that many expanders aren't the best "fit" for cast in many calibers.
Ian
Notorious member
Interesting how our experiences differ.
Strictly regarding the .45 Auto, I went through several TC dies before discovering that the 1970s RCBS and current Lee Precision taper-crimp dies are the only ones that actually work. The Redding profile crimp due is completely worthless, far too gentle of a taper and swaged the whole bullet down by the time you get the mouth to .468" Hornady dies are all pretty much junk IMO as well, and wrong profile crimp angle for the .45 auto too. RCBS forgot how to make them and Lee seating dies have such a cob-rough TC shoulder that they shave brass off the cases.
The M-profile works for some things but I have zero use for them. By the time you get the mouth opened up enough that the bullet will start straight, you have ruined a significant amount of case tension. Also, the angle of the transition step is often very abrupt and makes a ledge inside the case that makes a bumpity-bump feel as the driving bands get swaged going past it. My preference is an expanding spud that is about bullet diameter (or whatever will yield .0015" neck tension) and has a 10-15⁰ cone to flare the case mouth just enough to accept 3/4 of the gas check with light finger pressure. Use this in conjunction with a Forster in-line seating die and the bullets won't get crooked, the neck will have full tension on the bullet (if that matters, it does with .308 and .223 in a semi-auto), and there's no bulge below the crimp if you roll-crimp the case mouths. Using a two-diameter, parallel spud is a work-around for crappy seating dies, sizing dies which have squeezed the cases WAY too tight, and people who prefer the convenience of plunking a bullet into the case mouth without fiddling with it to make sure it is straight.
Strictly regarding the .45 Auto, I went through several TC dies before discovering that the 1970s RCBS and current Lee Precision taper-crimp dies are the only ones that actually work. The Redding profile crimp due is completely worthless, far too gentle of a taper and swaged the whole bullet down by the time you get the mouth to .468" Hornady dies are all pretty much junk IMO as well, and wrong profile crimp angle for the .45 auto too. RCBS forgot how to make them and Lee seating dies have such a cob-rough TC shoulder that they shave brass off the cases.
The M-profile works for some things but I have zero use for them. By the time you get the mouth opened up enough that the bullet will start straight, you have ruined a significant amount of case tension. Also, the angle of the transition step is often very abrupt and makes a ledge inside the case that makes a bumpity-bump feel as the driving bands get swaged going past it. My preference is an expanding spud that is about bullet diameter (or whatever will yield .0015" neck tension) and has a 10-15⁰ cone to flare the case mouth just enough to accept 3/4 of the gas check with light finger pressure. Use this in conjunction with a Forster in-line seating die and the bullets won't get crooked, the neck will have full tension on the bullet (if that matters, it does with .308 and .223 in a semi-auto), and there's no bulge below the crimp if you roll-crimp the case mouths. Using a two-diameter, parallel spud is a work-around for crappy seating dies, sizing dies which have squeezed the cases WAY too tight, and people who prefer the convenience of plunking a bullet into the case mouth without fiddling with it to make sure it is straight.
I have used an RCBS steel .45 ACP sizer die that has a slight taper....no big deal to lube the cases as I then pin tumble after sizing....the pins clean out the primer pockets and make the cases look "PRETTY!". One can also adjust the depth of sizing with the tapered steel sizer die if you pistol has a slightly oversized chamber in its' barrel.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
We do a few things right, every so often.
Some months back, Ian posted a very detailed study on taper crimp dies and their strengths and weaknesses. His text in this thread is a distillation of that good work. He kinda confirmed in those earlier texts a belief I have held for a long time--that taper crimping MUST be done as a discrete operation/die step from bullet seating. The RCBS taper-crimp/seater dies are BOGUS. I am obliged to use one in 40 S&W/10mm, but I have older die sets in 9mm and 45 ACP. In 40 and 10, I complete the reloading run in its entirety up to the point of bullet seating, then re-set the T/C size die (after removing its decapping assembly) to "kiss" the case mouth straight.
Some months back, Ian posted a very detailed study on taper crimp dies and their strengths and weaknesses. His text in this thread is a distillation of that good work. He kinda confirmed in those earlier texts a belief I have held for a long time--that taper crimping MUST be done as a discrete operation/die step from bullet seating. The RCBS taper-crimp/seater dies are BOGUS. I am obliged to use one in 40 S&W/10mm, but I have older die sets in 9mm and 45 ACP. In 40 and 10, I complete the reloading run in its entirety up to the point of bullet seating, then re-set the T/C size die (after removing its decapping assembly) to "kiss" the case mouth straight.
Last edited:
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I'm not a fan of seating and crimping in the same operation. Yes, I know how to do it and I have done it; but I avoid combining those operations whenever I can. By dividing the seating and crimping into two separate operations, I can exercise far greater control over each operation.
I use a RCBS Carbide Sizer die set, and yep the seater/crimp die is crap. I have an old Lyman steel set. I use the RCBS Carbide Sizer and Taper Crimp die/ no seat plug, and the Lyman M-Die to expand and the Seater die.
Works for me.
Seating and crimping only works on a revolver bullet with a Keith type crimping groove.
Although, now that I think about it. I do seat and crimp when using the old style bullets such as the Lyman #40143, #42798 & #454190.
It just seems easier to seat and crimp on the ogive at the same time.
Works for me.
Seating and crimping only works on a revolver bullet with a Keith type crimping groove.
Although, now that I think about it. I do seat and crimp when using the old style bullets such as the Lyman #40143, #42798 & #454190.
It just seems easier to seat and crimp on the ogive at the same time.
Last edited:
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Even when dealing with a roll crimp I prefer to separate the seating & crimping operations.
Most progressive presses separate those operations and I think there's an advantage in that. When using a single stage press, separating the seating and crimping adds another cycle to the overall loading procedure, but it is still worth the extra effort, IMO.
Most progressive presses separate those operations and I think there's an advantage in that. When using a single stage press, separating the seating and crimping adds another cycle to the overall loading procedure, but it is still worth the extra effort, IMO.
JonB
Halcyon member
I had always seated/crimped 9mm in the same step...until just recently...in fact I am in the middle of a batch of 9mm right now, and am using a Newly acquired Lee 9mm TC die for a separate crimp operation. I bought that TC die because...
I had been seating/crimping 45acp in one step also, but with the troubles I had about a year or two ago, with the 625 and moon clips of ammo not easily chambering, you fellas helped me resolve partially with a Lee TC die and crimping is separate operation and also sizing the bullets a wee bit smaller.
I had been seating/crimping 45acp in one step also, but with the troubles I had about a year or two ago, with the 625 and moon clips of ammo not easily chambering, you fellas helped me resolve partially with a Lee TC die and crimping is separate operation and also sizing the bullets a wee bit smaller.
alamogunr
Member
Can you provide a link? I've bought several extra die sets w/steel sizer for revolver rounds, but also to get the seat & crimp die. I use a Dillon 550B for 9mm & .45 ACP so those are covered for separate crimp. The other handgun rounds I usually do on a single stage or turret.
My 9 & 40 die are plain jane RBCS, no real problem. Friend got a M spud turned down for the 40. After flaring, crimping, banging the case mouth into the chamber after 5-6 loadings the mouth gets pretty chewed up - see those speckles when cleaning? Of course firing those work hardened mouths doesn't help. I just reload till PP get loose.