Kohler Courage 22 SV620 Engine question

[JWFilips]

Hi Guys,
I have a Troybilt Horse Lawn tractor ( cica 2010) that is starting to give me fits: this year I noticed that it was getting harder and harder to start.
As of the past 2 months it seem that the starter only turns the engine slowly about 3/4 turn then stops! If I turn the engine by hand where it stoped It seems under compression and hard to turn.... If I get it past that point and go a bit further it get hard to turn again and once past this the starter will sometimes turn the engine and start or only turn it to that compression point and stop!
After replacing the starter solenoid ( thinking that may be the issue) It didn't fix it! I even tried running the positive wire direct to the starter and it does the same thing! I take care of the engine so I'm puzzled that it appears that it is damaged. I heard the the valves may cause this if they are not adjusted correctly. Even if I use a Jump Box Starter it still seems like the starter is turning too slow to start the engine?
Any body out the have some trouble shooting tips ( I have exhausted all the ones I found on the internet except for adjusting the Valve lash)
Just not sure how hard the engine gets to turn when it is in the compression phase? Seem pretty tight to me but I'm not sure sice it is a 22 HP engine
Jim

 

[fiver]

I'd bet your starter is in need of repair.
if you had a meter to measure the amperage draw I bet it's pretty high and the battery isn't able to give it enough juice to spin the motor.
sometimes a jump will help or a larger battery will make the problem go away for a while, but the dirty/worn contacts in there need more juice to shoot through or better contact.

if your getting wirrrr,,,wirrr instead of wirrwirriwirr vroom that's a good bet.
unless your timing has been advanced like 20* ahead for some magic reason.

 

[JWFilips]

Ok That is sounding better then a messed up motor!

 

[Rick]

I too think it's the starter motor just doesn't have it any more since you said you also used a jumper pac. Wouldn't be the solenoid if the starter is turning, all the solenoid does is make a direct connection from battery to starter bypassing the ignition switch so if the starter is turning the solenoid did it's job. Don't want that amperage run through the ignition switch.

 

[freebullet]

Check resting battery voltage. Could just need a charge, have a dead/dying bat cell, check ground cleanliness, then maybe the starter.

 

[Bret4207]

The others have you on the right track. Start with the simple stuff- a bad battery can even pull the juice from a jumper pack/jumper cables down. Check the connections, polish them bright right from the battery terminals on through, and that's both positive and ground side. Pull the starer and check the mounting surfaces and polish them bright (most ground through the starter housing. If that makes no difference then the starter needs testing if at all possible or replacement. Some of those larger engines have a fair amount of compression, but you're still only dealing with 7.5 or 8 to one compression at most. There's no 13-1 high compression pistons and racing cam in there! My experience with the larger Kohlers is limited to a Craftsman 22hp and I'm sad to say it was a terrible engine. Bent pushrods, rocker mounts pulling out of the heads, pinched wires on the engine, etc. It never made it to 200 hours. Meanwhile I have old cast iron Kohler singles that have hundreds and hundreds, maybe thousands of hours on them.

I'd start with looking for good connections, then check the starter and if that fails get it to shop or come back here and we can try to walk you through the next steps.

 

[JWFilips]

A wealth of information here!
Thanks Guys!

 

[Ian]

Most if not all small engines have a compression release feature. Kohler used to have a lever you flipped that kicked the exhaust valve up a little to prevent it fully seating. The engine would still start and after it lit you flipped the compression release back off. Briggs had a thing where the exhaust cam base circle was a little eccentric and allowed leakage at low rpm (cranking) but was virtually unnoticeable at idle and had no effect on running power. If the camshaft is worn or valves out of adjustment and the compression release feature is now null, that could be the issue. Pull starting anything over about ten horsepower is damn near impossible with the OEM rope starter and malfunctioning compression release, and the electric-start models need the same advantage to work properly.

Or it could just be worn-out starter brushes and a corroded ground or battery wire connection...or defective battery.

 

[Rick]

Battery was the first thing I thought of but he said he tried a battery pac to jump it. That pretty much leaves corroded cables or starter. Or maybe a little of both.

Not aware of any cam exhaust thing on my 24 horse Briggs. No lever either. I did have to replace the solenoid on that Briggs though. A simple jumping across the solenoid terminals confirmed that was the problem. Was about an $8 replacement and no more problem.

 

[Brad]

This is why we have small engine repair shops and why I use them.

 

[KeithB]

Not a mechanic at all, but years ago I had little money and a succession of worn out cars and trucks (mostly Chevies). What the OP describes is just like what I experienced every time a starter was worn out. Went for several semesters to a local tech school and took some auto mechanic's classes there. Learned to turn down the rotor and undercut it and replace the brushes. Worked every time. Sometimes it would take a new cable or something but generally if cleaning the connections and jumping it with another battery didn't help it always required a starter rebuild. I believe the OP said it was 20 years old, plenty of time to wear down any brushes and the rotor.

Not giving advice, just sharing my experience.

 

[fiver]

I was jumping the solenoid on the Boat for a bit then I tracked things back to the neutral starter switch.
which was just loose and not bad.
I had it in the shop for the starting issue and they re-built the carb and put in new plugs assuring me it would start.
imagine my pissedoffness at the boat ramp in a 15 mph wind when my boat won't start 1/2hr after coming out of the shop.

 

[JWFilips]

OK ; Semi Rebuilt the starter today ( since I work bass ackwards) Had rust on the commutator (?) (part that rotates between the magnets!) cleaned and polished that up Brushes seem to not be worn much but cleaned the copper contact area and all the old dust in the brushes assembly housing! lubed the bottom of the shaft with moly grease and the top of the shaft with the same.
Locked back 3 of the 4 brushes to drop the shaft in and when I pulled the the 4th I heard a "ping& bing" Spring launched into some part of the shop! My Heart sunk! However with these deaf ears I did track it down! & Got it all assembled!
I do have that engines shop manual but their instructions for the starter rebuild were much more complicated ( requiring special tools!) didn't need them.
Anyway After putting it back on the tractor I watched it action on start & it was much smoother however it still doesn't seem to have the crank power! When I ran a jump wire from the Positive terminal of the battery it still turned slow and stopped! Then I got to thinking The battery may be determining the cranking power Maybe I have a Bad Cell
I'm going to fully charge the battery and see what voltage it puts out

 

[fiver]

it's amperage your concerned with.
voltage is well volts,,, but amperage is power, that's why you change the amperage on a welder.

 

[JWFilips]

OK so How do I know my battery is producing enough amps?

 

[fiver]

without a draw down tester you really can't.
if this is a 12 volt system I'd rig up another battery by passing this one totally, or swap the battery into something else that uses one that same size.
other than that all you can do is rig up a bunch of power using stuff and see if it will run it.
you probably need 550 CCA's to get that motor spinning 300+rpm [starting speed for most engines]
when you buy a battery those cranking amps are what your paying for, more amps more money.

 

[fiver]

are you getting anything out of the engine a pop or pook,
or is it just a couple of wirrs then a click click on the solenoid?
have you tried a little starting fluid?
it's not in gear, lights aren't on.
you know what I mean.

 

[Rick]

Do you have jumper cables? You could just jump it from something with a known good battery like your car. I don't know what you drive but it does have a minimum 65 amp alternator. If the starter works off jumping from the car you know it's not the starter motor.

 

[JWFilips]

If I stay at it for about an hour ......With starting fluid I can Get One Pop! Spins the engine somewhat and then spins it backwards!
If the weather is warm this works more often!
Had to say .....No lights on but it has a hydrostatic trans! Recently it was seeming to be in forward gear in the neutral position! So you just turned me on to another potential problem!
According to the repair manual I need a battery of 250 Cold Cranking amps! May be my son ( previous owner ) bought a bargain battery

 

[Ian]

Could be anything. I'd start by pulling a cover or something so I could see the valves move, check compression and spark, etc. To make a four stroke run you need fuel, air, compression, spark and all happening in the right amounts at the right time. Bad gas will soak into the porcelain around the hot electrode of the plugs and short them out so you never see the spark even if there is one. Sometime small engines won't fire on ether, especially when very cold.