Ladle question

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
A bigger pot is on my mind too. The 40 pound magma pot is the way I am looking to go.
I cast for almost 30 years all bottom pour. Rick and 358156 HP convinced me to try a ladle and I am hooked.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Had not ladle poured for a long time (back when I was casting a lot of round ball for front stuffers, well over 20 years ago). Started many years ago with a cast iron skillet on the kitchen stove, a lyman dipper, and a single cav 311284.
However, this thread and some other readings recently convinced me that I ought to spend some time in comparison.
Got a Lyman 10lb. ladle only pot on sale, and a 1 lb Rowell dipper, and dug out my old RCBS and Lyman dippers. Love the Rowell for 6 Cav Lee molds. The few comparisons so far seem to show me that I get better quality with ladle with 30 cal and up, but seem to have better luck with bottom pour with molds smaller than 30 with bottom pour. That may just be a factor of technique. That said, have not done enough testing to satisfy myself that I have truly valid comparisons. Will work on comparisons until I am satisfied that I have hit a sweet spot.
 

frnkeore

Member
I was a Jacketed shooter until I started MLing in '82, using a old Potter bottom pour (a good friends). So, that's how I started and never considered using a ladle.

I've been shooting in competition, ASSRA, ISSA and CBA since 1985 and have pressure poured, using a bottom pour pot since then (my own). I started with a Lee 10#. I got a Lee 20#, three years ago, it makes it possible to ladle out of the 20# as is.

I have a old, well used Lyman/Ideal ladle and a RCBS. I get a better pressure fill with the RCBS but, I also like the Ideal and don't have a favorite yet. Most of the guy's that I shoot with, ladle pour and with the 20# pot, I thought that I would try it and maybe pick up a point or two :) So, I go to my big once a year shoot in May (30+ of the best shooters in the US and Canada), it's a 250 shot BR match (4 matches over 8 days). The Spokane range has very tricky winds and can frustrate very experianced shooters. Wind flags are a MUST and it's also 6 deg up hill so, 200 yards takes very tall flags to get anywhere near the bullets path.

I took 300 bullets with me and last year, I took 200 PP and 100 LP. Over the course of the shoot, I shot two 249's (back to back) with the PP bullets and other than that, I couldn't tell any real difference in scores between BP and LP.

This year, I took 200 LP and 100 BP bullets, I got 3rd place in one of the matches and 5th in another using PP but, I was about 9th in all the others. Last year, I wasn't worse that 4th.

Another example occured this last May, 25th. With the leftover bullets from my Spokane math. The 10 shot group is PP (1.95, 9 in 1.12) and the score target is LP, first two shots wer at 2 & 3 o'clock, I held for that and got two shots on the left, I then held center for the rest. The only thing that I could find positive, is that it's the only perfect 240- 0 center target, that I've ever seen. They were shot, group first, then the score target after a sighting shot to center.

So, I'm very frusterated regarding LPing. I heat the ladle by submerging it until it's as hot as the lead. I tip the mold into the ladle, raise them together, wait about 2 sec, then let the lead pour onto the spure plate as I move away and wait for the puddle to freeze before opening.

I have to admit that the bullets look a little better, regarding the shiny finish, the bases are slightly rounded, where bottom, pressure pouring gives me totally (sharpe edge) filled out bases with a duller finish.

With brass, 4 cav molds, on 6 cav handles, LP is the only way I can cast, resting the mold on top of the pot. My match molds are 1 & 2 cav.

I just don't understand???????????

Frank
 

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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I am using a Rowell #2, it holds a bunch more lead than either a Lyman or RCBS ladle. This gives me a stronger flow into the cavities and let's me pour far more lead, think heat, over and into the mould. Rounded bases aren't an issue unless I screw up.
I get better fill out if I hold the ladle a bit above the mould and let gravity feed the lead into the cavities. I do prefer to pour a bit of lead before I start into a cavity, I think it lets the oxidized lead in the spout flow back into the pot rather than into a cavity.
I am hardly a bullet casting expert but I do feel that a large ladle such as the Rowell #2 gives me better bullets than I got using my RCBS as a bottom pour pot.
 

carpetman

Active Member
First post here. Start out by saying I had the pleasure of meeting Dale 53 who has replied on this thread. He does make fine bullets and is a great guy that has been there done that. He took my son and law and me to the range that he helped found. Used his guns and his ammo and had a great afternoon of shooting, then his wife fed us. A class act for sure.

I started out using a ladle and after about 20 years went to bottom pour. Never go back to a ladle. I do use the ladle when making fishing sinkers. I use direct contact with both the ladle and bottom pour. With .22 cal bullets I have to pour a little extra sprue or else the little pin head sprue wont turn loose.
 
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9.3X62AL

Guest
I don't do a lot of ladle casting, but I will use the method to make large caliber heavy-weight slugs--especially original Minie bullets for my 54 and 58 caliber front-loading rifles. I use every advantage possible to get those skirts to form fully and evenly in pure lead--high heat, iron moulds, hand casting with full ladle every pour and the ladle floating in the melt. I also used the method to make some pure lead #462560 for my Ruger #1 in 45-70, which we all enjoyed shooting at the end of a range session. The consensus view held that until megafauna returned to our West Coast to feed the condors that Cal-DFW gets so sanguine about......the need for recoil of that sort is superfluous. 575 grains departing at 1500 FPS from a 7-1/4# rifle was a bit much. That over-long bullet did fly nose-forward in the 45-70's slower 1-20" twist, though--that was a mite surprising.
 

Dale53

Active Member
Carpetman;
Good to see you on here - it's been a while:). Technique has a lot to do with success in BOTH ladle pour and bottom pour. I can get match grade bullets using either but am MUCH faster with bottom pour (as I mentioned on page one:rolleyes:).

When I used to ladle pour, I pre-heated the ladle by dragging it through with lead (which stirred it and probably reduced all hot spots in the lead), held the mould so sprue plate was vertical and placed the fitted ladle (Lyman) firmly against the mould. I immeditately rotated the mould and allowed suffiecient time to fill the mould. As I removed the ladle I allowed lead to run over the sprue plate back into the pot. This insures that the sprue plate is well heated and helps to maintain square bases.

When I bottom pour (I have a pair of RCBS bottom pour pots), I allow about 3/4" between the top of the sprue plate and the bottom of the spout. I theorized that the lead, by dropping this distance it fills the mould better. Actual results follow the theory... Again, I allow a generous sprue to maintain a heated sprue plate. This, again, insures a properly filled out bullet base with square corners. I consider this mandatory for match rifles (my Schuetzen rifle was a bonafide 1/2 minute rifle (1/2" groups at 100 yards and 1", center to center at 200 yards ON DEMAND, in good conditions). This requires EXCELLENT bullets. Jim Borton, former Schuetzen Meister of ASSRA has shot three perfect scores (250/10X) in one day during a registered match using plain base case bullets (all that is allowed in ASSRA competition. I had the pleasure of watching him cast bullets in his spare bedroom. He was set up to weigh each bullet as he cast them and only kept bullets that were +or- 0 tenths (that's right, each bullet kept weighed the target weight to a tenth of a grain. He was able to cast 100 perfect bullets an hour. He used an RCBS bottom pour pot. Jim was the best Schuetzen bench rest shooter it has been my pleasure to shoot with - he set records that probably still stand (and he beat Rowland's record and did it in a registered match in front of God and EVERYBODY!

I am afraid that my standards were slightly less. My .32 caliber Schuetzen rifle bullets (.32/.357 Dell-similar to the .32 Miller Short) were held to +or- .2 of a grain. Using a Borton Single Cavity custom mould, I could cast about 200 an hour. I weighed all of my bullets but using a digital scale it doesn't take very long.

I don't hold pistol bullets to such a high degree of consistency. My pistol bullets are cast by appearance but check weighed and will fall with in a few tenths (never to exceed +or- .6). I expect well under 1" at 25 yards off a Ransom Rest with my target autos and revolvers (that includes my heavy hunting revolvers). This is using multi-cavity moulds. My aluminum moulds are 5-6 cavities and my brass and iron moulds are mostly four cavities. I have a couple of six cavity iron moulds but, frankly, at my age, they are too fatiguing to enjoy using (my H&G 6 cavity for the #251 dbl ended W/C .38 Special bullet weighs nearly five pounds with handles. However, I can run nearly 1000 match grade bullets an hour. My four cavity moulds run about 750 bullets an hour.

I have calculated that I have cast somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 .45 ACP caliber pistol bullets, alone (not counting all of the .22's, .32's, .38/.357, .44 Special/Magnum, .45 Colt bullets) as I had formerly cast bullets commercially.

I am one of those strange birds that actually enjoy casting bullets. I do admit that with my advanced age I am slowing down a bit (celebrated my 80th birthday this week:confused:... (and recently shot 100/100 on the timed fire target at 25 yards, standing, with my S&W Model 625 (JM Special), so I am NOT complaining:D

FWIW
Dale53
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Has anyone run a comparison between a ladle like the Lyman which is usually used for a sort of pressure casting it seems against a Rowell type ladle that allows for a much stronger, longer lasting lead flow?

Never owned or used a Lyman ladle so I have no info, just curious. Does ladle type, and the technique the ladle is designed for, make a similar difference to bottom pours vs ladle?
 
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9.3X62AL

Guest
I have used only the Lyman and the RCBS ladles. The RCBS tool's reservoir is larger, so it seems to do a little better work for me. Keep in mind that i'm trying to keep my metal and the blocks it goes into HOT HOT HOT to facilitate skirt formation and/or complete fill-out through fluidity of unalloyed lead.
 

carpetman

Active Member
Have heard the theory that by ladle casting you put more pressure and get more consistency. To me that rings of going against the hydraulic principle of liquids can't be compressed. If you aren't getting air pockets, I don't see how there would be a difference. Happy Birthday Dale. I knew you had about 8 years on me and I'm coming up on 72. How did I know the 8 yrs? You told me the 53 in your handle was year of graduation and I graduated in 1961---8 years later. BTW I think I told you that my son in law Ross that you met had moved back to the Salt Lake area. He still flies back to Ohio for some of his work.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Nice to see you again Ray! I'll have to hide my sheep now or put chastity belts on the poor old girls I suppose....;)

Myself, I'm a ladle guy and believe my success comes from the ladle allowing me more variabilty in how I make my pour. If the mould wants sprue to nozzle contact, fine! If it wants a 1/2" drop or a 2" drop it's easy do without mucking about trying to see under the pot. It all adds up to consistent pours that work for the guy doing it. If I ever get the SAECOs piggybacked and up at eye level, maybe I'll change my mind.
 
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9.3X62AL

Guest
Bret & Ian--

It's that tall palm tree that Brad installed on his desert island. Ya get tossed around on the swells for long enough, sooner or later ya sight it and paddle over to see dry land again.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ian helped plant the seed for that palm tree. A few others had a hand in it too.
I'm just happy it grew and flourished.
 

sundog

Active Member
Howdy, Bret! Good to see ya agin!

Well, I goofed. Previous post I meant to say that I get the best bases using a DIPPER, not a ladle. I've never used a bottom pour.

I use the dipper in contact with the sprue plate. Bases are well filled and bullet to bullet weight is most consistent. A little slower than ladling, but worth the effort.
 

300BLK

Well-Known Member
I have Lyman/Ideal, RCBS, and Rowell #1 and #2. For smelting and mixing up batches over propane, I'll use one of the Rowells. For casting bullets, its generally one of the Lyman/Ideal ladles with its short handle that I reach for. It holds plenty of metal for even the big 45s Dale53 was speaking of, and is smaller, more maneuverable than the RCBS with its longer handle, longer spout, and larger resevoir. My Lyman 20# and Lee 10# are both plugged, and the 20# Lee never had the BP bits.

The molds dictate whether to pour in contact or just close to the sprue hole. Too much head pressure will make fins and whiskers in some molds, and too, temperature and tempo play into what the mold needs to make perfect bullets. Some multi-cavity molds have a particular cavity that needs more attention than others. I try to keep temperature down and tempo up so as to maximize the yield from my time at the pot. No PID, but I watch the thermometer closely. I can add sprue back in or drop preheated ingots into the pot to drop temperature. Casting with a ladle does require more frequent fluxing, so to keep the metals married, flux and flux often!;)