Lee 309-230-5R; revisited, repurposed

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
I think many of you may have this mould lying around. The stated purpose of this design, is as a subsonic bullet for the .300 BLK, or other fast-twists, for that matter.
Another potential use, could be as a long- range target bullet, owing to the phenomenal ballistic coefficient (BC) of this bullet. Lee claim it is 0.688. That’s a bit better than the Hornady .308 cal 225grs HPBT- bullet. Seriously good BC, really!

Some measurements of my bullets, as cast.
Base of the nose: .298
Front driving band: .304
Microbands: .310
Rear driving band: .3105
Alloy is a plumbous mystery alloy that harden to about BHN 14-15.

So, the typical under-sized nose. But if we consider this in the context of «core-mould for PC», and add 0.002in to all diameters- things are looking better! At least for a throat with little wear. I happen to have a Rem 700 with a virtually new Schultz & Larsen 30-06 barrel (good stuff).

Now, I’ll do a little comparison of two hypothetical cast bullet loads, to show you why this bullet gets interesting at long range. If you have no interest in calculations, skip to the next post (that’s where the shooting starts!).

In this exercise, we’re assuming we cast geometrically perfect bullets, where theoretical group size is strictly proportional to shooting distance (accuracy in MOA is the same at all ranges).

Our hypothetical load #1 is with the XCB- bullet. In fact, it’s a very good load that propels our bullet at 2450 fps with 1MOA accuracy.
Listed BC of the XCB- bullet, is 0.287

Load #2 is with the Lee- bullet, propelled at 1900fps with 1,5MOA accuracy.
Listed BC of the Lee 309-230 is 0.688

So, the Lee is slower from the muzzle, and has inferior accuracy. Which loads would give us the best chance of hitting a steel plate at, say, 550 yards?

First, some basic calculations. The XCB will shed speed much faster than the Lee. Actually, at 340 yards velocity will be the same. The XCB remains supersonic to 580y, while the Lee keeps supersonic to 1040y (!).

The challenge with long-range, is to judge wind. The problem is not that it’s difficult; it’s actually impossible. Because you’re compensating for wind that hasn’t happened yet. And you’re calling the wind based on it’s effect on vegetation etc on the ground, while in the non-range setting you often shoot through higher air-streams that are typically stronger (across a valley, for instance).
Therefore, a high-BC bullet is invaluable; it reduces the consequences of our erroneous wind corrections.

Let’s see what happens with our two loads at 550y, if the shooter underestimates the wind by 1m/s (2,2mph). Which is still a pretty good call.
At 550y, our fantastic XCB- load has a group size of 5,5in. But the wind not accounted for, will drift the bullet about 12 inches.

Our Lee load, #2, will have a theoretical group size of 8,25 in. The wind not accounted for, will drift the bullet 5,5 inches.

My guess is, the Lee- load will hot the plate more often, despite starting at a lower velocity, and being slightly less accurate in this example.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Assuming the Lee bullet maintains a sort of linear dispersion rate out to longer ranges, your point is well made!

The farthest I've launched the Lee 230 at a target is 200 yards, subsonic at the muzzle. It does 1.5 MOA consistently from my semi-auto rifles, fed from the magazine. At 200 yards, 3" groups are possible but VERY sensitive to how the rifle is held at the bench due to long barrel time. I should try this with my Savage .308 Winchester sometime, if I can get to a longer range.
 

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
Lately, I’ve experimented a little with powder coated plain base bullets, and slow propellants. Previously, I’ve had an unfounded understanding that these bullets are best served with medium/fast rifle powders. I was wrong.

The brass was well-used Norma pick-ups, neck sized with my newly modified and well working .31-06 collet auto-flare.
Bullets were powder coated, and left to mature for a month. I ran the nose into a .302 nose sizer, which did nothing to most bullets- but actually ironed out a few high spots in some. Then sized .310. Set to a little jump.

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About the powders.. Norma have a series of standard powders (200, 201, 202, 203b, URP, 204, MRP and 217). In addition, they have 4 non-standard powders offered here in Scandinavia, aimed at competitive high- volume shooters. These powders are the «unruly cousins» of 203b, URP, 204 and MRP. They are lot- variable, but you get a few lot-spesific data on the label. And they’re cheap. N-4 is the cheap version of 204, and N-15 is similar to MRP (magnum rifle powder). N-4/204 is similar to the 4350’s, while N-15/MRP is similar to RL22.

Last range trip, I tried 40grs of N-4 with a very nice group!

Today, I had loaded 40-41-42grs of N-4, and shot one group with 48grs of N-15. It was 2 degrees above freezing, with rain and fog. I was shooting, wearing gloves and a wet rain coat. A bit demanding, I must say.

The 40grs N-4 load had one called flier (left!), the remaining 4 landing very close (21mm). Still, with the called flier 44mm c-c, which is 1,5MOA at 100m.
The 41grs N-4 load was 38mm c-c, which is 1,3MOA.
At 42grs N-4, things opened up to 79mm (2,7MOA) despite good percieved shooting performance.

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The 48grs N-15 load also shot well, 39mm c-c (1,3 MOA).
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I’m quite excited about these initial results. I’ll explore the 40-41grs with N-4 more, and try some more N-15 (48-50grs).
I don’t have a working chrono these days, but I’ve got a LabRadar in the pipeline, so I should be able to provide both velocities and true BC in a while. Exciting!

I’ve cast and coated some more bullets, but will have to give them some more time to stabilize hardness. I’ll get back to you!

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Spindrift

Well-Known Member
JustJim, the twist rate is the regular 1:10in.

Joshua, the furthest plates on my usual range are only 370y. But I think there are some decent long range possibilities within an hour or so, I'll have to do some research. But first, there is a little more load development to do.
 

Ian

Notorious member
N-204 @ 42 grains gives roughly 1,850 fps at about 1,670 Bar. 48 of MRP more like 1,950 fps at close to 1800 Bar. That's about what you were figuring.

The concept of plain-based (meaning no gas check), powder-coated cast bullets being propelled with very slow rifle powders is pioneering. This is similar to using paper-patched bullets without gas checks and case-filling quantities of very slow-burning rifle powder in combination with a compacting, granulated buffer material in the case shoulder/neck area.
 

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
@Ian , thank you for running the simulations!
I’m exploring the concept of relatively slow powders with coated PB in some other projects as well, and initial results are encouraging! In particular, working with the NOE 360-232 Ranch Dog in the .35 Whelen has been a good learning experience. I’ll post some results in a while, I just want some more solid data.

@JustJim , it’s always a bit difficult to predict what you get in the «Lee lottery». By what I’ve read from others, this mould seems notorious for dropping undersized noses. Which might work very well, if you coat them and reach sensible dimensions. The coating will also toughen up the bullets to tolerate the launch conditions I’m using here. But if you’re using regular lube, this mould will likely be an excercise in frustration.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Thanks. I've been considering trying that bullet in my favorite Krag sporter, but wasn't sure what to expect in the 1:10 twist.
They shoot fine in my 10" twist .308 down to about 950 fps. Holes are a little oval but it groups fine.
 

richhodg66

Well-Known Member
A few years ago, I got an old, two cavity of the Ideal 311001 which throws a plain based, 250ish grain .30 with a decent sized flat nose. It did not shoot well, most tumbled, in the 1in 10 .30-06 I tried it in and becuase I figured it should need top be pushed as fast as I dared for stabilizing, I got a lot of leading.

I still have some cast up, I may need to dig them out and pursue this further. I like the idea of heavy for caliber. I'm kind of surprised in this thread that guys are getting good results with this Lee bullet in a standard twist.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Going to be watching this with interest. I have the NOE version, which I have only cast a couple of samples out of pure. Next casting session I will cast some with 30 - 1 so I can get some measurements. Originally bought this one for the 30-06 and the 30-40.
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NOE and a NEI 308-220
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Spindrift

Well-Known Member
JustJim, your 250grs FN sure sounds like a majestic .30- cal bullet, just like the "flying pencil" Glaciers has! I can understand your difficulty in reaching stability in a 1:10 ROT, within the load tolerance of a conventional lubed PB bullet.

One option would be to add a plainbase gas check. Sages sell these, or you could get a checkmaker die at Pat Marlin. The concept works!
The other option, is powder coat. I assume this is a bore-rider. If it is well-fitting in the first place, plainbase GC might be the way to go. If there is room for another 0,002in of nose diameter, PC is a powerful tool!

Glaciers, such nice bullets you have there! The 247 grs NOE bullet has a rather nice meplat as well, might make a hunting load perhaps!
 

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
Come to think of it, I have another heavy .30-cal PB bullet with a general design suitable for PC. The MP BLK. I have both the GC and PB version. The nose is identical, but the PB has a longer base section, and is 10 grs heavier. 226 grs in my alloy, with a small HP. I guess I'll have to try this as well, with the slow powders!

IMG_20221126_194426973.jpg
 

Dimner

Named Man
I'm excited for this project. I wonder if those would work at slow velocities in my savage 340 or savage 24. I'll have to check the twist rates.

I do have a 30 blk barrel and a stripped upper just laying around in my storage bin.... might be worth getting going.
 

Spindrift

Well-Known Member
JustJim, you're right, I got it wrong- sorry!

Glaciers, yes I guess you need to push it a little. With powder coat and GC, the bullet can tolerate the required push. The question is if you have a rifle that will permit a sensible COL, with the fattened- up nose you get after coating. A well-used 30-06, for instance, might work.

Dimner, Berger's web site have a nice stability calculator that could be helpful. I'll get back to you with some calculations.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well my NOE 247 is 1.333 long, .311 body and .300 nose.
The RCBS 180 FN which weighs at 198 with GC, has a nose starting out at .301 and with PC added works in my 30-06 and 30-40 with no problems with the nose being plus side of .302.
So the 247 shouldn’t be a problem. The COL might be though.

The NEI 308-220 RN is 1.195 long, 3.10 body and .299 nose. This one chambers in my 30-30 Savage just fine, but if I remember it was a bit long for the Win 94.