Long range, HV cast - high BC designs vs better nose/throat fit
- Thread starter BHuij
- Start date
fiver
Well-Known Member
I think his first understanding is probably enough to get started with.
there is a pretty wide window to work in here the important thing is to have success and then search out the relationships between speed[both]/alloy/ distance/and jump speed.
in a moving breathing system like a lever gun or a semi-auto rifle your looking for a balance of proper feeding and acceptable tolerances within that system.
just enough neck tension to get there with a bullet in place.
just enough case diameter to feed and fill the chamber.
just enough hardness in the bullet to make the transition from the magazine.
and then enough toughness and strength for the second part of the trip.
the shape of the bullet is really helpful in both the feeding and the throat part.
you can only negotiate the length in one direction, that opens a window to changing powder speed at the same time.
think about getting started as shooting for the middle of the road.
there is a pretty wide window to work in here the important thing is to have success and then search out the relationships between speed[both]/alloy/ distance/and jump speed.
in a moving breathing system like a lever gun or a semi-auto rifle your looking for a balance of proper feeding and acceptable tolerances within that system.
just enough neck tension to get there with a bullet in place.
just enough case diameter to feed and fill the chamber.
just enough hardness in the bullet to make the transition from the magazine.
and then enough toughness and strength for the second part of the trip.
the shape of the bullet is really helpful in both the feeding and the throat part.
you can only negotiate the length in one direction, that opens a window to changing powder speed at the same time.
think about getting started as shooting for the middle of the road.
BHuij
Active Member
In this case I'm actually loading for a bolt action, so I can probably go a little tighter on tolerances. The mag only holds 5 rounds, so if I had to go to single feeding it wouldn't be the end of the world.
I'll see what I can accomplish with my 55gr Lee die. If I can get the accuracy I want, then I'll think about getting a heavier bullet for longer distance shooting.
I'll see what I can accomplish with my 55gr Lee die. If I can get the accuracy I want, then I'll think about getting a heavier bullet for longer distance shooting.
Ian
Notorious member
Heat treating and alloying-up are two slightly different things. Heat treated alloy will always draw and flow like it will when air cooled, its just stronger. Add more antimony and possibly tin and the heat treating characteristics change slightly, but the draw is affected at all tempers. Tin is in effect a grain refiner and a small amount of it (up to equal the antimony content by molarity) will make a very fine Sb/Sn matrix which is stronger than no-tin antimony alloy and doesn't flow very easily at all, at any temper. The minimum bhn will be higher but max bhn lower than no-tin when heat treated. Sometimes you want an alloy that's tough but draws easily (as when using the rifle to size the bullet) and sometimes you want a naturally finer, slicker, springier metal that's pre-fit very closely to the throat dimensions and doesn't change shape very much when fired.
Fiver is one of the few people who has made two-diameter bullets work at hv (me not being one of them) and he has done this by bumping up the tin and antimony of ww to about #2 alloy and adjusting casting temperatures to make noses which perfectly engrave and bands which get scuffed all the way into the throat. If the bullets have too much antimony they can't flex enough to handle the bumping at hv and also micro-fracture and slough metal off on the drive side of the lands causing leaks and poor accuracy. Its all a balance. Try the alloy he recommended for the Lees and size them to throat entrance diameter so the front band edge parks itself into the center of the throat funnel when chambered. I think ww alloy is just too weak for max velocity in the .22s unless you powder coat them. Pc 50/50 alloy didn't work too well for me in the .22s and I tried both the Lee and MP .22 NATO bullet both, but same alloy was plenty for .30-caliber even air cooled at 2400 fps. Air-cooled pc alloy held up fine to over 2900 fps. in the .22. At lower velocities (2k fps) ww alloy might work in the .22.
Fiver is one of the few people who has made two-diameter bullets work at hv (me not being one of them) and he has done this by bumping up the tin and antimony of ww to about #2 alloy and adjusting casting temperatures to make noses which perfectly engrave and bands which get scuffed all the way into the throat. If the bullets have too much antimony they can't flex enough to handle the bumping at hv and also micro-fracture and slough metal off on the drive side of the lands causing leaks and poor accuracy. Its all a balance. Try the alloy he recommended for the Lees and size them to throat entrance diameter so the front band edge parks itself into the center of the throat funnel when chambered. I think ww alloy is just too weak for max velocity in the .22s unless you powder coat them. Pc 50/50 alloy didn't work too well for me in the .22s and I tried both the Lee and MP .22 NATO bullet both, but same alloy was plenty for .30-caliber even air cooled at 2400 fps. Air-cooled pc alloy held up fine to over 2900 fps. in the .22. At lower velocities (2k fps) ww alloy might work in the .22.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I got there by first learning the mold temp I could just barely get good bullets at and then how to hold it there.
then I fidgeted the alloy around to get the proper diameter.
it was a time consuming process, and the casting rate is about like watching paint dry fast.
once I'm going I keep going for as long as I can stand to run the mold, then I sort them before and during sizing/checking/lubing. [then once again after]
I waste some gas checks in the process, and I have ended up throwing a whole days worth of bullets back in the pot.
sometimes several runs of bullets go back, and even after I figure it out I sometimes end up throwing back a whole or part of a batch.
then I fidgeted the alloy around to get the proper diameter.
it was a time consuming process, and the casting rate is about like watching paint dry fast.
once I'm going I keep going for as long as I can stand to run the mold, then I sort them before and during sizing/checking/lubing. [then once again after]
I waste some gas checks in the process, and I have ended up throwing a whole days worth of bullets back in the pot.
sometimes several runs of bullets go back, and even after I figure it out I sometimes end up throwing back a whole or part of a batch.
Bruce Drake
Active Member
https://www.mp-molds.com/e-shop/molds/solid-molds
I use the MiHec Molds .225 65gr bullet design for my 223Rem/5.56 NATO shooting. Its heavy enough, I don't have to reduce my standard service rifle loads by too much and still retains some high velocity and decent accuracy when gaschecked and poly-coated.
I never had good luck with Lee's 55gr BATOR Mold that Midsouth sells in 223Rem in my AR15s (1-9" and 1-7" twists on the two uppers) but it worked nicely in my 1-14" 22-250 bolt rifle.
That said, I just recently bought Lee's new 55gr Round nose-flat point design and cast a few up last weekend that I plan to try in my ARs later this summer.
I use the MiHec Molds .225 65gr bullet design for my 223Rem/5.56 NATO shooting. Its heavy enough, I don't have to reduce my standard service rifle loads by too much and still retains some high velocity and decent accuracy when gaschecked and poly-coated.
I never had good luck with Lee's 55gr BATOR Mold that Midsouth sells in 223Rem in my AR15s (1-9" and 1-7" twists on the two uppers) but it worked nicely in my 1-14" 22-250 bolt rifle.
That said, I just recently bought Lee's new 55gr Round nose-flat point design and cast a few up last weekend that I plan to try in my ARs later this summer.
Bruce Drake
Active Member
My current alloy for high-velocity bullets is 5lbs of Rotometals Super hard Alloy mixed in with 25lbs of Chilled Magnum Shot. According to the math, its just a touch harder (bhn 16.3) than Lyman Hardball (bhn 16). I don't hunt but mostly punch paper so I'm not concerned if the bullet expanded or not when it hits the berm. This alloy has a 8.5% antimony and 0% tin and a touch (1.5%) arsenic to go along with 90% lead. Hardball is 2% Tin, 6% Antimony and 92% lead. both of those alloys cast fine in the MiHec Brass Mold I referenced above. Polymer coating the bullet also allows me to not have to worry about lube migration in the heat of an Indiana summer in the back of the SUV while driving to the range or in storage in the garage polluting the powder to cause a squib.
For general rifle plinking or pistol work, I'm not so picky and 25lbs of range scraps sweetened with 5lbs of Super-Hard Alloy gets me to around 12-14bhn which is between 10-1 rifle alloy or 50/50 Solder in hardness.
Almost everything I shoot now a days is polymer-coated. I've got two Lyman 45s and a Lyman 450 collecting dust. That said, only one of the 39 calibers that I reload is lubed conventionally now and that's my 50-70 Govt. Trapdoor as I use BP and Pyrodex and I've got good load/lube recipes with it already.
Wife and kids are heading to visit relatives in GA for a week during school break so I might actually get to the rifle range this weekend if the weather is nice.
Bruce
BHuij
Active Member
I have a lot of SOWW and COWW alloy on hand and a little bit of a lino/mono blend, so I'm probably set for getting my antimony where I want it. Tin seems to be the missing ingredient for me. From Rotometals I'd be paying upwards of $25/pound for tin after shipping. Is it more cost effective to buy something like solder wire on eBay? Or is there some other really inexpensive source of high SN/low SB alloy I'm not aware of?
Ian
Notorious member
60/40 solder
I have 30 lb extra I can let go. Looking for 6 bucks a lb and I will weigh it plus shipping
www.artfulbullet.com
fiver
Well-Known Member
I almost took him up on that tin but remembered I have enough.
as in enough that I traded some off for a reduced to below cost price on a windshield for the Mustang.
I still cruise through the thrift shops poking around bending stuff when I can't read the labels or stamps.
as in enough that I traded some off for a reduced to below cost price on a windshield for the Mustang.
I still cruise through the thrift shops poking around bending stuff when I can't read the labels or stamps.
Ian
Notorious member
Same here. I snapped up all the assayed 63/37 solder I could afford every time that fellow on Boolits from FL put a batch up. He did that 4-5 times over a few years (always when I was near broke) and I managed to accumulate about 40 lbs on top of the solder and tin bars already in stock.
BHuij
Active Member
That guy's 60/40 is a good deal, bummed I missed it. I did spring for a lb of pure tin from Rotometals, which ends up being a lot less expensive than 60/40 solder on eBay from what I can see.
Went ahead and built a quick alloy calculator spreadsheet. I'm going to try a small batch of 93/3/4 bullets and a small batch of 90/5/5 bullets to see which shoot better with my 55gr mold. With the metals and alloys I have available to mix, my 55gr bullets are still under $0.02 each, which is acceptable. It would be closer to $0.01/bullet if I ordered 3 or 4 pounds of tin at a time to save on shipping. Once I have proof of concept I'll probably do just that
Went ahead and built a quick alloy calculator spreadsheet. I'm going to try a small batch of 93/3/4 bullets and a small batch of 90/5/5 bullets to see which shoot better with my 55gr mold. With the metals and alloys I have available to mix, my 55gr bullets are still under $0.02 each, which is acceptable. It would be closer to $0.01/bullet if I ordered 3 or 4 pounds of tin at a time to save on shipping. Once I have proof of concept I'll probably do just that
Last edited: