Low drag 45 exploration ?

[RBHarter]

Im just rattling around loose in my head .

I'm thinking a low drag 45 heavyweight 520-540 gr .
Maybe something like nose pour HB design like a 45-255 SWC with a square driving band about .15 .(http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-265KN-D.png )

Fit a tight base pin for a nose with a radius of about 2" . For a nose at .5" long to a point with minimal shoulder line .
( http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/n.o.e._bullet_moulds_htc459-500-sp_pb_bp2_sketch.jpg )

I'm good to paper patch a thing like this too .

I'm leaning on a sub that will get a BC up to .380+
2 bases , 45 Raptor and a 45-70 . Soft alloy maybe a 50/50 or a 1/20-WW 75-25 WQ . The high BC should be relatively flat shooting ... 150 yd zero , 4-5" over at 100 8" under at 200 yd about 7ft low at 300 another 4 ft to 350 but at 1100 fps MV , and 1000+ ftlb .

I see the nose/base pin being kind of a hassle .
.454 or .460 dia . The short nose to accommodate the 1895 action , the Raptor is in an SR Mauser so outside of the leade/throat there's no hang ups there .

What do you think ? Too much of a good thing ? Impractical ? Just plain old over kill for 150 yd deer/hog .

 

[fiver]

159 yds for a deer or a pig with a regular everyday 405 Gov't profile will be waay more than sufficient.
heck if anything I'd lighten things up a touch [275-380] and focus on one gun at a time.

heavy and profiled are for 1,000 yd shooting.

 

[RBHarter]

Been thinking that maybe quieter booms might not be a bad thing . Not being at 4000' any more I might have to slow them down even more . I have a 535 that is too nose long but would be ok in the Raptor .

 

[fiver]

when you have to slow down and lighten things up to be pretty evenly compared to a 454 casull you know you have enough energy to get things done without a lot of drama.
the 45-70 et-al work on weight and the momentum of that weight to do the job.
400grs is a lot of lead.
even at something most would consider sedate like 750 fps it has the capability to completely pass through very large animals.

 

[Ian]

The Raptor was invented to extend the "point blank" distance of a big-bore, at least to most reasonable hunting distances, i.e. less than 300 yards.

The other side of this coin was aptly described by Glen Fryxell regarding chasing trajectory: "It's more fun to learn how to hunt". Or, says me, as a concurrent option, buy a rangefinder and spend time at the range with your load so you have DOPE you can use in the field.

A 1050 fps Lee 457-340RF and a Lee C459-500RF will both be right at three feet low at 200 with a 100 zero, only 1.5" difference between the two at 200. Exchange the Lee 459-500-3R pointy ICBM at same launch speed will drop just about 1-3/4" less at 200 and 7-1/2" less at 300. Is that a significant ballistic gain for loss of the blunt, killing meplat? You decide.

 

[RBHarter]

Just musing mostly . With the lower pressures involved I expect I would be able to get along with my "pistol" alloy used for 38 & 45 Colts and ACP . It's pretty soft and expands well even with round nose bullets .

If the mould and nose pin were cut as described the bullet weight would be adjustable within the length of the pin from over 500 down to maybe 350 . I have no doubt that a 350 bumbling along at 17-2100 fps would dismantle everything it ran into and be almost fun to shoot backed down to 12-1300 and be plenty formidable .

The root idea was to apply pseudo modern ballistic design to a cartridge that works within it's intent .

 

[Ian]

I been down that musing road a few times too, my conclusion was that without a Raptor to push 300+ grains up over 2K, there's no real way to make a .45 shoot flat. A pointy nose improves the BC for a given weight, but still you need the speed to see any real difference in trajectory (that's why I've come *this* close to buying into the Raptor system), but for slower stuff it just doesn't matter that much what you shoot or how you get it there, it's an exercise in lobbing lead.

What would tempt me to try is a paper-patched .45 ACP semi-wadcutter at about 2500 fps. A .44 Mag. steel sizing die is about right to knock cores down to PP for .452"-bores.

 

[KHornet]

Interesting!

Paul

 

[RBHarter]

I been down that musing road a few times too, my conclusion was that without a Raptor to push 300+ grains up over 2K, there's no real way to make a .45 shoot flat. A pointy nose improves the BC for a given weight, but still you need the speed to see any real difference in trajectory (that's why I've come *this* close to buying into the Raptor system), but for slower stuff it just doesn't matter that much what you shoot or how you get it there, it's an exercise in lobbing lead.

What would tempt me to try is a paper-patched .45 ACP semi-wadcutter at about 2500 fps. A .44 Mag. steel sizing die is about right to knock cores down to PP for .452"-bores.

I have a 430421 that has the bands opened to .448 if you might really have that urge , it was surprisingly good in a Colts about 1425 over a full 21 gr Ruger snort of H110 .

 

[Ian]

This stuff is all kinds of fun, lots of possibilities to play with. I bought into the .458 Socom instead, smaller, lighter semiauto platform, easy to load super-heavies for suppressed loads, works great in standard AR mags, etc. However, giving a PP .448 SWC a hard go with .460 S&W Mag load data in the Raptor would be interesting.

 

[Ian]

Hey....what about a 350-grain boat tail or rebated boat tail with a nice pointy front end for the Raptor, at full speed? Maybe powder coated or at least paper-patched? I never paper patched a boat tail, that should be interesting. It's one way to get the BC and trajectory up there with lighter bullets.

 

[freebullet]

They do make jax with higher bc for those. The pp route with less meplat & bevel base could be interesting.

 

[RBHarter]

I can vouch for a 350 @ 1800 is where the fun stopped in a 6# bolt action Raptor .

My thinking is that a more slippery bullet would slow more slowly . The NOE 459132 copy says it's a .38? BC and plugged into the calculator gives me a 150 yd zero 4.7 over at 100 , 8.5 under @ 200 with 1100 fps start . The 458193 and MP 462-425 are much .....more brick like , lumping them together at 412&417 gr respectively .
Is a 16-18" carbine a long range gun ? No I don't think so , but certainly good enough for 200 yd . It's a 45-70 level load either way and it'll hit like a small pickup .

 

[RBHarter]

I'm actually thinking a full rebated base because of so many past discussions about how the pressure behaves on the base . Mechanically the square shoulder should relieve much of the "bevel swage cutting .

 

[popper]

I thought the rebated base was to fill the throat and accommodate brass neck thickness?

 

[RBHarter]

Think more VLD than heeled . A finished bullet might look like a Crammer #B4 scaled up to 454 from 285 and 350-535 gr vs 130 .

 

[RBHarter]

The fly I forgot about ......
That darn tube magazine ........

 

[fiver]

it's not the tube I worry about so much it's getting the round from the tube to the chamber.

you could always lighten the bullet for a shorter nose length, you have all kinds of neck length to play with for tension.
IMO looking for velocity without nose strength or accounting for slump [even with a paper jacket] is looking for a non accuracy event.

 

[RBHarter]

This has potential . With a couple of tweeks . Like a square check shank about .15 long ,.454 dia and some lines to hang on to the patch .
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-435Z-D.png
Although I have a cannalure tool and a double cut file to fix 2 outta 3 ......... I bet I know a guy that could turn a roller for the cannalure tool to make a step on the BT ......
I might have to spring for an Accurate mould .

 

[fiver]

have it cut with a couple of 'lube grooves'.
there is a little room to work with the COG but not a lot [about .1 maybe] if you add them and try to keep the weight the bullet will get a touch longer, I'd live with the slight weight loss.