Lyman 429421

James W. Miner

Active Member
Jim? Nice to see you, haven't seen any of you since Jays forum.
I get around some and to hear about Jay's passing was hard to take. Jay believed in me and was a good friend but to never give him a hug still hurts. He was a good, good man with a love for his family that the Lord understood, God bless him.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
Many here do not know me and how much I want to help. I never shoot less then 50 yards or meters with revolvers and anything over 1" is tossed. I will shoot a .38, nine, .22 or a C&B at 25 but never a hunting gun.
Things sound crazy and when I made my boolit mold I also said that I screwed up. Everything said I needed a large base band. Then i was blown away.
Then all of you heard a WFN will not be stable past 50 yards. My best group was 2-1/2" at 500 meters and a WFN took a 6" swinger 4 out of 5 at 400 yards, first shot a sighter.
It is hard to comment on the pattern shot by Brad. Can I bring him down to one hole? I think so.
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
I think you will be able to share a good bit of knowledge, I know my revolver skills are pretty poor. Once I get my cylinder reamed properly I plan to work on it a lot
 

Ian

Notorious member
I just read back through this whole thread. I'm still stuck on the pictures of the "Remlin" groups at 100 yards, I smiled big because for some reason a lot of people think that's impossible to do, and few do it. There is a certain amount of art to it, no doubt.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
My old Marlin 95 in .45-70 will do good work without any fiddling of fore end, or barrel
bands, just dead stock with a 1.5-4X scope on it. With cast, usually about 1.5-2" for
5 shots, serious hunting loads, 1750 fps with a 405 RCBS. I am not nearly as impressed
with my Win 86 Extra Lite, it has been a beautiful problem child from the beginning. No
throat, iffy ignition with the stupid lawyer firing pin lock and rebounding hammer, just
a pretty face with limited usefulness.

I had heard people badmouthing the Remington versions, but seems that at least some of
them are definitely accurate rifles, if fed ammo that they like.

Bill
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
What you need is an oiooold Model '86.
IMG_0505.JPG
I tell my wife, "If you want quality, go with old men, old whiskey and old guns."
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
Marlins have always been accurate, except the .44. They messed up the twist.
I really see no difference in the Remlin then any Marlin I had. Maybe luck but it is fit up very nice.
I don't mind the safety since it allows dry firing when doing trigger work, Marlins can break a firing pin if dry fired, sometimes the very first time.
Now if they would bring back the .22 Mounty, I would be happy. Most accurate and beautiful .22 ever made.
 

Dale53

Active Member
I just recently sold my Marlin 1895 (modern but with Ballard Rifling) 45/70. Using my own Lee 340 gr cast bullet at Marlin speed, it would reliably give me 1.5" groups at 100 yards. Unfortunately, Ohio would not allow 45/70 rifles for deer hunting. I lost the vision in my right eye, and a year or so later, Ohio opened deer hunting to any straight walled rifle case:(.

I SO wanted to go hog and deer hunting with that one but it wasn't to be. The same thing happened regarding my Ruger #3 in 45/70.

That's the bad news. The good news is that my good friend and neighbor bought them both and has put them to good use!:D

At any rate, a modern Marlin 45/70 with Ballard rifling gets my vote as the favorite woods rifle for game from deer and hogs on up to whatever you fancy.

FWIW
Dale53
 

Dale53

Active Member
I thought I might mention another favorite lever action. That is the Marlin 1894CL in .25/20. When the 25/20 is used with a good cast bullet it can become the one of the best small game guns, EVER! I worked up three loads for my Marlin - all using the Lyman 258420 gas check cast bullet. I had a lot of linotype on hand and it casts BEAUTIFULLY. I loaded 4.0 grs. of Unique for squirrels (about 1400 fps.). I would always take the squirrels in the head if that shot were presented but oftimes, it wasn't. When no head shot was possible, then a hit right behind the shoulder would bring the biggest fox squirrel in these parts out of the tree.

I had a "medium" load that gave about 1800 fps (as I remember) of 11.0 grs. of RL-7. The "high speed" load was 14.5 grs. of RL-7. This was a compressed load that gave just under 2200 fps. These were all chronographed at the time. I loaded the same five cases twenty times (in a row) with the high speed load. I didn't lose one case and, in fact, when I sold the rifle years later I was still using those five cases. I would NOT recommend the high speed load for anything but the Marlin 1894 CL but it was a dandy. We had lever action matches (any caliber any load, jacketed or cast) at our local club for three years. That was twenty four matches. That little rifle won them all...

All three of those loads would shoot ten shot groups giving all tens on the fifty yards small bore target. The "X" count was not high but this wasn't a dedicated target rifle, after all. Just about the best small game rifle anyone could imagine. It really hurt when I lost the vision in my right eye and could no longer make use of it.

I bought several hundred jacketed bullets when I got the rifle. I still have them. Considering the performance with the 258420 bullet, there was absolutely NO need for a jacketed bullet.

FWIW
Dale53
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Got out today and fired some at 50 yards from a rest. I really need to work on sight alignment.
image.jpeg image.jpeg
Top target is with front band as cut. Lower target with the front band opened up to a size that allows it to be sized along with the lower bands.

Load was 6.5 gr Unique in 44 special cases. Fired in open sighted 624 from a rest at 50 yards. I fired 10 of one then 10 of the other and repeated.
I have some ammo left and will repeat the test in my SRH with scope to eliminate some sighting error.

Sure looks like the front band being larger makes a difference. Some outliers are certainly due to operator error but one load sure has a tighter group.
 
L

Lost Dog

Guest
Have not encountered this issue with the old 4cav Lyman 421 mould, so I cannot comment on that, however I do have an interesting bit of information about a similar mould/bullet.

Last year I bought a pristine Lyman #429360 double cavity. A 232gr SWC designed by Gordon Boser, a contemporary of Keith and Thompson. Boser was a gunsmith in New York and was quite ahead of his time in the development of what became the .41mag. His had two SAA Colts in 5.5". One in .401" and the other in .44S&W Spl. His bullet design for the .44, the #420360 was initially designed to function in a Colt .44 barrel. Normally cut to .427". S&W going .429". Boser SWC's had .427" front driving bands to allow more refined use in primarily a Colt SAA, and secondly a S&W. The early moulds with the smaller band are plentiful enough and many folks have them and speak poorly about them. That has given this bullet a bad reputation.

However, Lyman did turn out the same mould with a full caliber front driving band that is far more S&W friendly. Mine is from the later "improved" moulds and produces beautiful bullets that shoot very well in my 4" M 629 made in 2009. Either in mag cases or loaded in Spl cases, this bullet performs!

Discontinued somewhere around 1990 or so, it can still be found on eBay from time to time often for very little. Mine was near mint in the box and was $28 plus shipping ($4) If I could do pics with this cellphone I'm using I'd post 'em... Sadly I'm not a skilled computer tech.
:(
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Photos from a phone is easy. Click the "upload a file" button below the dialogue box. Then select the photo you want to upload and voila, a photo is uploaded.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Shot 25 from each cavity at 50 yards today with the scoped SRH. Load was 6.5 gr Unique.
image.jpeg
This was with the smaller front band.
image.jpeg
With the larger front band.

Not a big difference at all. Appears that the larger front band cuts down group size a little but not enough to fret over in most situations.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I see a rounder group on the bottom and more in the center, with fewer in
the periphery. I think the front band is more important than you are giving
it credit for.
I would try some different loads, say 7 gr Unique and 7.5 and see if they do
better. 7.5 is supposed to be a good one, but I haven't shot it much-- recommended
by Skeeter Skelton.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
Sure looks better but I might detect something or two. Are you using mag primers? If so dump them. I use ONLY FED 150's in the .44 with ANY powder. Yes, even 296!
Next, it looks like your case tension is not even. Most important that every boolit has the exact same pull. Hardest problem I ever had so I made a tool to measure seating pressure so I could sort loads.
You can get an idea if you feel a difference inserting boolits. If you feel a few easier and a few tighter, they can impact the target as much as 10" from each other.
I also experimented with brand new brass and found them the very worst, they get better after shooting a bunch.
Another way to find out is to sort your brass when shooting. Any out of a group, set aside and then reload only those that grouped best. 100_1051.jpg rod.jpg
Here is my tool. The long rod is spring steel piano wire from a hobby shop, it bends when you seat. I just start a boolit and use the rod to seat, catch the handle near the crimp and crimp with it. Don't crimp with the rod.
The small rod will pull out and move the faucet washer to a mark, set that case in a pile with the others at that set line. Push the washer back for the next round.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Nice; torque wrench press handle. If I shot competition I would be looking at doing something in that vain myself. Simple, and the simple designs are usually the best.
 

James W. Miner

Active Member
Yes, I shot IHMSA to work out problems and they worked. Even jacketed need even tension. Make one and a hose clamp at the bottom of the rod works.. You do not need the aluminum base. That was from a friend so I did it because I had metal. Nobody ever beat my revolver groups with any gun. Brass is the huge problem along with dies not right.