KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
Here is a link to a project I did back in 2008. Thanks to JonB for finding it.
Lyman 450 rebuild
- Thread starter KeithB
- Start date
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
That is so much better than what I did, just kept selling and trading until I got one that was reasonable straight.
Ian
Notorious member
Ok, I'm gonna take a shot at this, but as usual will do it the hard way...just because?
I really wanted to use my shaper to true the base, so I did. Problem is the box table wouldn't go low enough to clean it in one shot, so even after five different setups I had to do it in two stages. Long story, but I was at mechanical limits one way or the other no matter what I did. Could have used the milling machine and flycutter, but I'm stubborn. Ignore the "apprentice groove" where I cut it about .003" too deep for a bit and was too lazy to run through two setups again to clean it. Other than that it's flat to under a thousandth now checked with straightedge.
I really wanted to use my shaper to true the base, so I did. Problem is the box table wouldn't go low enough to clean it in one shot, so even after five different setups I had to do it in two stages. Long story, but I was at mechanical limits one way or the other no matter what I did. Could have used the milling machine and flycutter, but I'm stubborn. Ignore the "apprentice groove" where I cut it about .003" too deep for a bit and was too lazy to run through two setups again to clean it. Other than that it's flat to under a thousandth now checked with straightedge.
Ian
Notorious member
Good grief this is a pain in the ass.
So an hour plus setting up the sizer on the mill, making an alignment rod shimming, checking with a level, a square, and tramming the rod with a test indicator. Found out the ram hole was egged about .020" back right to front left. Got set up and started boring it out, stopped once it was round, pulled the boring head out, and rechecked all around the alignment rod with a ball gauge, made some X and Y adjustments, bored it round again, made an x-axis tweak of .001", skimmed it round again, and got the hole centered as well as in-line. As an "idiot check" I got onba step ladder and sighted through the drawbar hole all the way down the alignment rod and also after rotating the spindle and alignment rod both and then pulling out the rod and looking through the die too. It's true. Can't say as much for my job shaping the base flat, it's off about 40 thousandths one way and 30 the other, we'll just call it the Leaning Tower of Orange!
Tomorrow I'll figure out how much bigger to make the hole, maybe head for a round number plus a couple thousandths and call it good.
So an hour plus setting up the sizer on the mill, making an alignment rod shimming, checking with a level, a square, and tramming the rod with a test indicator. Found out the ram hole was egged about .020" back right to front left. Got set up and started boring it out, stopped once it was round, pulled the boring head out, and rechecked all around the alignment rod with a ball gauge, made some X and Y adjustments, bored it round again, made an x-axis tweak of .001", skimmed it round again, and got the hole centered as well as in-line. As an "idiot check" I got onba step ladder and sighted through the drawbar hole all the way down the alignment rod and also after rotating the spindle and alignment rod both and then pulling out the rod and looking through the die too. It's true. Can't say as much for my job shaping the base flat, it's off about 40 thousandths one way and 30 the other, we'll just call it the Leaning Tower of Orange!
Tomorrow I'll figure out how much bigger to make the hole, maybe head for a round number plus a couple thousandths and call it good.
Ian
Notorious member
Checking alignment with the rod in a collet. I don't have any indicating tools for the mill so I improvised with a full-sized mag base Noga and a slightly convex tip on a dial indicator.
Boring it out. I had just about an inch more throat? height on this machine than absolutely required to do the job. Most benchtop mill/drill machines won't be able to do this, and the extra distance from quill to table is one reason I went (spent!) up to the next level of machine. Glad I did! This is really a job for a knee mill.
The finished hole, .966" as it turned out, I got bored (no pun intended) turning the knee crank and had a good finish going so I quit while I was ahead.
Then I sawed off a chunk of 1-3/8" diameter 660 bearing bronze (what I had on hand) and got that going in the lathe. Should have turned the ram first, dangit! Oh well. So the bronze is cleaned up on the outside and faced, time to spot, drill, and bore out before I remove too much more on the outside and weaken the part since I need a parallel hole through it.
Snapped this pic before dressing off the outside:
Boring it out. I had just about an inch more throat? height on this machine than absolutely required to do the job. Most benchtop mill/drill machines won't be able to do this, and the extra distance from quill to table is one reason I went (spent!) up to the next level of machine. Glad I did! This is really a job for a knee mill.
The finished hole, .966" as it turned out, I got bored (no pun intended) turning the knee crank and had a good finish going so I quit while I was ahead.
Then I sawed off a chunk of 1-3/8" diameter 660 bearing bronze (what I had on hand) and got that going in the lathe. Should have turned the ram first, dangit! Oh well. So the bronze is cleaned up on the outside and faced, time to spot, drill, and bore out before I remove too much more on the outside and weaken the part since I need a parallel hole through it.
Snapped this pic before dressing off the outside:
Last edited:
Ian
Notorious member
I spent most of yesterday turning a bushing and cleaning up the ram. Fitting things to tenths is an experience for certain, not to mention exercise in tailstock alignment perfection little discoveries like just how far the spindle is misaligned with the bedways. In the end I got it done but the whole design we're working with here is just terrible. Even with a fit so close the ram is stiff, there is enough imperfection in my work to induce wobble when the handle cams over. I got .003" play at the end of the ram which feels like a lot more and is certainly enough to bend bullets. The play is only going to get worse, so before I Loc-tite this bushing in, I'm pondering what could be done better to improve this federal disaster of engineering and materials choices wrapped in a coat of orange paint.
Two problems. One, the ram is butter-soft, probably 12L14 judging by how sharp HSS can shave mylar off of it so thin it practically floats in the air. Two, the ram bushing simply MUST be adjustable for slack and wear. The lateral force that the handle and compound linkage imparts to the ram is severe and the longitudinal support of the bushing so short that excessive wear and slop will occur in short order by design.
So I'm for sure going to make a new ram out of something better, and design a tapered bushing arrangement which can be kept in adjustment.
Two problems. One, the ram is butter-soft, probably 12L14 judging by how sharp HSS can shave mylar off of it so thin it practically floats in the air. Two, the ram bushing simply MUST be adjustable for slack and wear. The lateral force that the handle and compound linkage imparts to the ram is severe and the longitudinal support of the bushing so short that excessive wear and slop will occur in short order by design.
So I'm for sure going to make a new ram out of something better, and design a tapered bushing arrangement which can be kept in adjustment.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
The Star does the same thing, but in a better way. Hey! where did I hear this from?
Ians sig line- It's not how you do it, it's the way you do it.
Ian
Notorious member
After sleeping on it for a couple of weeks, I changed tack. Was going to make a bronze split bushing with a very slight taper turned on the outside and form the identical taper in the sizer ram bore with J.B. Weld, but turning, drilling, and boring that bronze is a real bear on my little lathe, so I bought some 1" acetyl rod instead. Last night I turned and polished the ram down to .750" and then made a bushing from the plastic rod for a .0005" clearance fit on the ram and a snug press fit in the ram bore. My experience in the heavy truck world has taught me that bronze bushings wear about the same rate as steel pins and much faster than Delrin or Nylon bushings on steel pins. Delrin and Nylon don't wear much at all, the steel does, but not until it loses grease.
Photos later, after I get it all cleaned up and put together.
Photos later, after I get it all cleaned up and put together.
RBHarter
West Central AR
Ian ,
Just loose thoughts about wear , bushings , oil , seals , pressure , sort of all balled up , inspired by your description of the parts and my very worn Partner press .
In aviation we have an axle/shock assy referred to as an olio strut not really too different from the McPherson type except it has a knee type travel stop that also keeps the alignment .
In typical form they have a 10-14" travel . Time is harder on the seals than miles .
Basically the assy is a tube with an upper and brass bushing , 2 "O" rings or chevron seals , a scrapper to keep the big chunks out . The axle and piston are one piece and just slip up inside the tube . I've taken apart a dozen or more the upper bushings rarely have enough wear to to give them a second look . That's hard chrome or polished chrome moly that travels 3-3-1/2 feet per cycle more in windy areas less maybe where they live in hangers .
The bottom bushing however takes up the alignment , side load , and shock loads . A 24" lever attached to an 8.00-6 tire that accelerates from 0-50 possibly 110 mph in 25' with as much as a 10-15 degree out of run line side load while 13-1400 lbs drops on it isn't something that gets a lot of wear but peens a lot .
The seals manage to contain 60-100 psi of air over oil unloaded and up to 1200 psi sitting . I've seen them hold well with a lot of movement ...... Stay with me .
It seems to me that a bronze bushing to carry the alignment load with a softer than the ram steel/iron thrust load ring on the side loading handle/knee end should all but eliminate wear with a polished ram . Having a kiln on hand you should be able to do a nitride hardening of the ram , it's sometimes also called Melonite treating though different functionally it's the same . Heat the parts expose them to an ammonia fog , viola' black chrome that holds oil like cast iron . An all steel bushing so treated against a treated ram will be sticky though , even swimming in oil .
Following the above the steel insert would would take all of the side/out of line load and shift it to an alignment load . Unless the ram shape changes the "funnel" effect on the bushing from below should be gone and the rest of that load will be at a minimal load on the top of the bushing without a complex tapered ram or bushing .
Just loose thoughts about wear , bushings , oil , seals , pressure , sort of all balled up , inspired by your description of the parts and my very worn Partner press .
In aviation we have an axle/shock assy referred to as an olio strut not really too different from the McPherson type except it has a knee type travel stop that also keeps the alignment .
In typical form they have a 10-14" travel . Time is harder on the seals than miles .
Basically the assy is a tube with an upper and brass bushing , 2 "O" rings or chevron seals , a scrapper to keep the big chunks out . The axle and piston are one piece and just slip up inside the tube . I've taken apart a dozen or more the upper bushings rarely have enough wear to to give them a second look . That's hard chrome or polished chrome moly that travels 3-3-1/2 feet per cycle more in windy areas less maybe where they live in hangers .
The bottom bushing however takes up the alignment , side load , and shock loads . A 24" lever attached to an 8.00-6 tire that accelerates from 0-50 possibly 110 mph in 25' with as much as a 10-15 degree out of run line side load while 13-1400 lbs drops on it isn't something that gets a lot of wear but peens a lot .
The seals manage to contain 60-100 psi of air over oil unloaded and up to 1200 psi sitting . I've seen them hold well with a lot of movement ...... Stay with me .
It seems to me that a bronze bushing to carry the alignment load with a softer than the ram steel/iron thrust load ring on the side loading handle/knee end should all but eliminate wear with a polished ram . Having a kiln on hand you should be able to do a nitride hardening of the ram , it's sometimes also called Melonite treating though different functionally it's the same . Heat the parts expose them to an ammonia fog , viola' black chrome that holds oil like cast iron . An all steel bushing so treated against a treated ram will be sticky though , even swimming in oil .
Following the above the steel insert would would take all of the side/out of line load and shift it to an alignment load . Unless the ram shape changes the "funnel" effect on the bushing from below should be gone and the rest of that load will be at a minimal load on the top of the bushing without a complex tapered ram or bushing .
Ian
Notorious member
The Lyman 450/4500 is just a poor mechanical design. One short bearing surface to take severe radial thrust load from the cam linkage mechanism of the handle, first in one direction from the top of the stroke, then reversing 180⁰ near the bottom where the axial thrust load is the highest. A system like this needs TWO bearing points.
Anyway, it's done, the ram is dead-center in line with the die and doesn't wiggle (for now, anyway).
My overall opinion is these things aren't worth fixing. Get a Star orba Lyman 45, or just powder coat and use Lee push-through or KeithB's H-die conversion bullet sizing equipment.
Installed with a heater eater base I made for a clothes iron:
Anyway, it's done, the ram is dead-center in line with the die and doesn't wiggle (for now, anyway).
My overall opinion is these things aren't worth fixing. Get a Star orba Lyman 45, or just powder coat and use Lee push-through or KeithB's H-die conversion bullet sizing equipment.
Installed with a heater eater base I made for a clothes iron:
oscarflytyer
Well-Known Member
ok - seeing this pop back up, I really feel like a putz asking if JB Weld is a good idea to fix my tube cracked 450! Just Dang!